Wikipedia:Featured article candidates

This star, with one point broken, indicates that an article is a candidate on this page.

Here, we determine which articles are to be featured articles (FAs). FAs exemplify Wikipedia's very best work and satisfy the FA criteria. All editors are welcome to review nominations; please see the review FAQ.

Before nominating an article, nominators may wish to receive feedback by listing it at peer review. Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article before nominating it. Nominators are expected to respond positively to constructive criticism and to make efforts to address objections promptly. An article should not be on Featured article candidates and Peer review or Good article nominations at the same time.

The FAC coordinators—Ian Rose and Sarastro1—determine the timing of the process for each nomination. For a nomination to be promoted to FA status, consensus must be reached that it meets the criteria. Consensus is built among reviewers and nominators; the coordinators determine whether there is consensus. A nomination will be removed from the list and archived if, in the judgment of the coordinators:

  • actionable objections have not been resolved;
  • consensus for promotion has not been reached;
  • insufficient information has been provided by reviewers to judge whether the criteria have been met; or
  • a nomination is unprepared, after at least one reviewer has suggested it be withdrawn.

It is assumed that all nominations have good qualities; this is why the main thrust of the process is to generate and resolve critical comments in relation to the criteria, and why such resolution is given considerably more weight than declarations of support.

The use of graphics or templates on FAC nomination pages is discouraged, including graphics such as (substituting Number), and edit this page (i.e., the page you are reading at the moment), pasting the template at the top of the list of candidates. Replace "name of ..." with the name of your nomination. This will transclude the nomination into this page. In the event that the title of the nomination page differs from this format, use the page's title instead.

Supporting and opposing

  • To respond to a nomination, click the "Edit" link to the right of the article nomination (not the "Edit this page" link for the whole FAC page). All editors are welcome to review nominations; see the review FAQ for an overview of the review process.
  • To support a nomination, write *'''Support''', followed by your reason(s), which should be based on a full reading of the text. If you have been a significant contributor to the article before its nomination, please indicate this. A reviewer who specializes in certain areas of the FA criteria should indicate whether the support is applicable to all of the criteria.
  • To oppose a nomination, write *'''Object''' or *'''Oppose''', followed by your reason(s). Each objection must provide a specific rationale that can be addressed. If nothing can be done in principle to address the objection, the coordinators may ignore it. References on style and grammar do not always agree; if a contributor cites support for a certain style in a standard reference work or other authoritative source, reviewers should consider accepting it. Reviewers who object are strongly encouraged to return after a few days to check whether their objection has been addressed. To withdraw the objection, strike it out (with <s> ... </s>) rather than removing it. Alternatively, reviewers may transfer lengthy, resolved commentary to the FAC archive talk page, leaving a link in a note on the FAC archive.
  • To provide constructive input on a nomination without specifically supporting or objecting, write *'''Comment''' followed by your advice.
  • For ease of editing, a reviewer who enters lengthy commentary may want to create a neutral fourth-level subsection, named either ==== Review by EditorX ==== or ==== Comments by EditorX ==== (do not use third-level or higher section headers). Please do not create subsections for short statements of support or opposition—for these a simple *'''Support''',*'''Oppose''', or *'''Comment''' followed by your statement of opinion, is sufficient. Please do not use emboldened subheadings with semicolons, as these create accessibility problems.
  • If a nominator feels that an Oppose has been addressed, they should say so after the reviewer's signature rather than striking out or splitting up the reviewer's text. Per talk page guidelines, nominators should not cap, alter, strike, break up, or add graphics to comments from other editors; replies are added below the signature on the reviewer's commentary. If a nominator finds that an opposing reviewer is not returning to the nomination page to revisit improvements, this should be noted on the nomination page, with a diff to the reviewer's talk page showing the request to reconsider.


Ramandu's daughter

Nominator(s): Aoba47 (talk) 14:43, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Hello everyone! The above article is about a fictional character in The Chronicles of Narnia series of juvenile fantasy novels by the British novelist C. S. Lewis. Introduced in the author's 1952 book The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, she marries Prince Caspian and becomes the queen of Narnia. In the 1953 novel The Silver Chair, the Lady of the Green Kirtle, in the form of a snake, kills her though she later reappears in the 1956 book The Last Battle.

The character appears in several adaptations of the book series, the British television serial The Chronicles of Narnia, portrayed by the English actress Gabrielle Anwar, and The Chronicles of Narnia film series, where Australian actress Laura Brent plays the role. Ramandu's daughter was the subject of literary analysis by various scholars, with her goodness and her marriage and sexual relationship with Caspian receiving attention. The character has been associated with various Christian virtues and figures, including Eve before the fall of man.

I believe that the article meets all of the requirements for a featured article. It has passed a good article review and been copy-edited by a member of the Guild of Copy Editors. I would greatly appreciate any suggestions or comments as always. I hope that everyone has a wonderful day and/or night! Aoba47 (talk) 14:43, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Comments by Eric Corbett

  • I'm curious as to why you introduce Michael Ward as "British scholar", Peter J. Schakel as "British literature Professor" (should be "professor" anyway), and Colin Duriez as "British writer". What has their nationality got to do with their opinions? Also, I very much doubt whether Lewis would describe himself as a British author rather than an English one; Britain and England are not synonymous. Why is it significant that Gabrielle Anwar is an English actress (not a British one I note)? Is Devin Brown a professor of English or merely English? Why is it significant that Laura Brent is Australian?
  • Removed nationalities. I went off the main Wikipedia page for Lewis' nationality, but I have changed according to your preference. Aoba47 (talk) 05:09, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "Academics believed that Lewis characterized Ramandu’s daughter through her goodness." So they no longer believe that?
  • Should the tone for scholars be in past or present tense? I could not find a Wikipedia policy on this, so I just kept it consistently in the past. Aoba47 (talk) 05:09, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Your use of the past tense carries with it the implication that academics no longer believe that, but something else (unspecified) instead. Eric Corbett 06:33, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "... the character's respect towards Aslan defines her goodness." Do you mean "respect for ..."?
  • Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 05:09, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "She noted how the character's maternal care for Rilian ..." She noted how, or she noted that?
  • Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 05:09, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Overall I found this rather an uncomfortable read, and I think it's going to need quite a bit of polishing before it's ready for promotion. Eric Corbett 00:02, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
  • @Eric Corbett: Thank you for the comments, though I think that calling it "uncomfortable" is very rude and unnecessary. Aoba47 (talk) 05:09, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Rude? I think that you need to learn how to accept criticism gracefully. Admittedly though that's a rare skill here on WP, so you can't really be blamed for that. But just to add to my "rudeness", I'll tell you now that if the prose is not improved then I will be opposing this article's promotion. Take that as you will. Eric Corbett 06:27, 20 April 2018 (UTC)


Nominator(s): LeGabrie (talk) 21:27, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

This article is about the Medieval Nubian kingdom of Alodia, which lasted from the sixth century to c. 1500. The article covers what is known about its history, geography, government and culture. LeGabrie (talk) 21:27, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Comments by Lingzhi

  • Is this your first FAC? You have some serious work to do on your notes & references. Fix as many as you can; ask if you don't know what to do.
  • Zarroug 1991, p. 7-8. P/PP error? p. 7-8.; Hyphen in pg. range;


  • O'Fahey & Spaulding, p. 19. Harv error: link from CITEREFO'FaheySpaulding doesn't point to any citation.


  • Abu Manga 2009, p. 377. Harv error: link from CITEREFAbu_Manga2009 doesn't point to any citation.


  • O'Fahey & Spaulding, p. 31. Harv error: link from CITEREFO'FaheySpaulding doesn't point to any citation.


  • MacMichael 1922, p. 183. Harv error: link from CITEREFMacMichael1922 doesn't point to any citation.


  • Zarroug 1991, p. 77-79. P/PP error? p. 77-79.; Hyphen in pg. range;


  • Welsby & Daniels, p. 334. Harv error: link from CITEREFWelsbyDaniels doesn't point to any citation.


  • Welsby 1991, p. 307. Harv error: link from CITEREFWelsby1991 doesn't point to any citation.


  • Welsby 1991, p. 159. Harv error: link from CITEREFWelsby1991 doesn't point to any citation.


  • Danys & Zielinska, p. 183. Harv error: link from CITEREFDanysZielinska doesn't point to any citation.


  • Drzewicki 2016, p. 16. Harv error: link from CITEREFDrzewicki2016 doesn't point to any citation.


  • Drzewicki 2016, p. 8. Harv error: link from CITEREFDrzewicki2016 doesn't point to any citation.


  • Drzewicki 2016, p. 47. Harv error: link from CITEREFDrzewicki2016 doesn't point to any citation.


  • Harv warning: There is no link pointing to this citation. The anchor is named CITEREFAbu-Manga2009. Sort error, expected: Abir1980; Caution: Missing pagenums for book chapter?


  • Abir, Mordechai (1980). Sort error, expected: Abu-Manga2009;


  • Crawford, O. G. S. (1951). Missing Identifier/control number, e.g. OCLC;


  • Danys, Katarzyna; Zielinska, Dobrochna (2017). Missing identifier (ISSN, JSTOR, etc.);


  • Drzewiecki, Mariusz (2016). Caution: Missing ref= anchor?;


  • Edwards, David (2001). Missing identifier (ISSN, JSTOR, etc.); Missing archive link;


  • Gonzalez-Ruibal, Alfredo; Falquina, Alvaro (2017). Missing identifier (ISSN, JSTOR, etc.);


  • (in German) Grajetzki, Wolfram (2009). Missing identifier (ISSN, JSTOR, etc.); Missing archive link;


  • Hasan, Yusuf Fadl (1967). Missing Identifier/control number, e.g. OCLC;


  • Hatke, G. (2013). Missing Publisher; Missing ISBN;


  • Jakobielski, Stefan (2013). Missing Publisher; Missing ISBN;


  • Harv warning: There is no link pointing to this citation. The anchor is named CITEREFMachMichael1922. Missing Publisher; Missing Identifier/control number, e.g. OCLC;


  • Mohamed, Abdelrahman Ali; Bakhiet, Fawzi Hassan; Salih, Muawla Mohamed (2014). Missing Publisher; Missing ISBN;

Online source. Probably needs to be referenced differently?

  • Obluski, Artur (2014). Sort error, expected:


  • O'FaheySpaulding1974; Missing Publisher; [I'm not sure this sort error is a valid one...]

Nope, it isn't. Publisher has just a funky name.

  • Obluski, Artur (2017). "Alwa". Sort error, expected: Obluski2014; Missing ISBN;

Fixed, I think?

  • Penn, A.E.D. (1934). Missing identifier (ISSN, JSTOR, etc.); Missing archive link;


  • Power, Tim (2008). Missing Publisher; Missing ISBN;


  • Spaulding, Jay (1974). Sort error, expected: Shinnie1961; Missing identifier (ISSN, JSTOR, etc.); Missing archive link;


  • Shinnie, P. (1961). Excavations at Soba. Sudan Antiquities Service. Sort error, expected: Spaulding2007; Missing Identifier/control number, e.g. OCLC;


  • Taha, A. Taha (2012). Missing identifier (ISSN, JSTOR, etc.); Missing archive link;


  • (in German) Török, Laszlo (1974). Missing identifier (ISSN, JSTOR, etc.); Missing archive link;


  • Tsakos, Alexandros (2011). Missing identifier (ISSN, JSTOR, etc.); Missing archive link;


  • Tsakos, Alexandros (2016). Missing Publisher; Missing ISBN;

Source is a blog. Probably needs to be referenced differently?

  • Tsakos, Alexandros; Kleinitz, Cornelia (forthcoming). Check date values in: |date= (help) Caution: Missing pagenums for book chapter? Missing Year/Date;

Forthcoming book. Probably needs to be referenced differently?

  • Vantini, Giovanni (1975). Missing ISBN;

Tried to find the ISBN, but didn't succeed. Maybe it doesn't even have one?

  • Welsby, Derek; Daniels, C.M. (1991). Soba. Archaeological Research at a Medieval Capital on the Blue Nile. The British Institute in Eastern Africa. ISBN 1872566022. Sort error, expected: Welsby1998;


  • Welsby, Derek (1998). Sort error, expected: Welsby2002;


  • Welsby, Derek (2002). Sort error, expected: WelsbyDaniels1991; Warning: Unexpected result – extra formatting in template? Missing ISBN;


@User:Lingzhi Yes, this is my first FA-nomination, though I had two GA-nominations around a month ago. I fixed most stuff, but I need some help with these archive links, identifiers and proper reference of online sources. LeGabrie (talk) 21:22, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
  • I fixed two for you: "sort error, Abir goes before Abu-Manga" and "rm unexpected formatting". I think your sorting order is correct in one instance: Oblung does come before O'Fahey, and I need to tweak the script. There are other sort errors lower down the list though, and still several other errors. One error that may seem strange: Power, Tim (2008)." Missing Publisher; Missing ISBN;".. this error is because you are using when you should have used {{ ; DOI : 10.4000/cy.1685 |pages=92-110. And so on. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 23:56, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
@Lingzhi Fixed Power and put Welsby&Daniels in correct order. What errors are left which need to be fixed? LeGabrie (talk) 12:06, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
You can, for example, go to worldcat and very often you'll find isbn, oclc or issn info. Other quite useful tools include IABot's Analyze a page for archiving links, User:Citation bot/use, and User talk:GregU/dashes.js for hyphens in your page ranges. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 13:09, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
@Lingzhi Added the OCLC numbers and archiving links. LeGabrie (talk) 20:24, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

(WorldCat just grabbed the first one, which is good enough for me: |location=Warsaw, Poland|publisher=University of Warsaw Faculty of Law and Administration, Chair of Roman Law and the Law of Antiquity. And so on, there are more erros or warnings. And if you want to know how I saw all these errors, read User:Lingzhi/reviewsourcecheck carefully. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 23:06, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Antiochus X Eusebes

Nominator(s): Attar-Aram syria (talk) 03:37, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Many ambiguous characters appeared during history, and I think that king Antiochus X is one of the most intriguing ones. All we have of him are few coins and short passages in the works of ancient historians; the earliest is the Jewish historian Josephus who lived a 150 years after Antiochus X. Yet, the works of modern historians, linguists and numismatists have greatly expanded our knowledge about this ruler who, at the age of 20 (max) was able to avenge his killed father, face four of his cousins who tried to destroy him, and still have energy and a good judgment to leave the petty dynastic feuds behind to stand against one of the most powerful empires of his time, Parthia. I think I have gathered 98% of all the academic works about this king and it took two months to complete this short but very comprehensive article (taking into account the very little we know about the king). I hope this will be a good and enjoyable read for everyone.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 03:37, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Comments by Lingzhi

  • Seven instances of p/pp error e.g., Bouché-Leclercq 1913, p. 641, 643, 416
  • Houghton 1987, p. 79. Harv error: link from CITEREFHoughton1987 doesn't point to any citation.
  • Dobiáš, Josef (1931). Harv warning: There is no link pointing to this citation. The anchor is named CITEREFDobiáš1931.
  • Dumitru, Adrian (2016). Caution: Missing pagenums for book chapter?
  • Goodman, Martin (2005) [2002]. Caution: Missing pagenums for book chapter?
  • Hoover, Oliver D. (2011). Caution: Missing pagenums for book chapter?
  • Houghton, Arthur (1989). Caution: Missing pagenums for book chapter?
  • Kelly, Douglas (2016). Caution: Missing pagenums for book chapter?
  • Llewellyn Jones, Lloyd (2013) [2012]. Caution: Missing pagenums for book chapter?
  • Olbrycht, Marek Jan (2009). "Mithridates VI Eupator and Iran". Caution: Missing pagenums for book chapter?
  • Scott, Roger (2017) [1989]. Caution: Missing pagenums for book chapter?
  •  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 15:12, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
    • All is fixed. As for the pagenums of chapters, I intentionally dont add them because I make sure to mention the page in the shortened citations. But since you mentioned it as a problem, I added pages numbers.
      • i didn't know we had a "green" template. that'll be handy in some circumstances. :-) As for page numbers, I very, very seriously doubt anyone would consider failing a FAC over it, but best practice would be to put the page number that the cite refers to in the sfn, and the entire page range of the article or chapter in the cite book/citejournal/whatever. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 02:41, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
        • Well, it is more professional to go your way tbh :) I had a prof who would deduct a full point (out of ten in an assignment) for not adding those numbers in the bibliography

Comments by Constantine

Late Seleucid history is a confusing mess, and I got a headache every time I tried to read about it (one can only keep track of so many people named Antiochus...). User:Attar-Aram syria has a real talent in writing articles about these guys that are both comprehensive and comprehensible, and this is another example of it. I've gone through it making various minor changes for style (feel free to revert if you disagree), but otherwise the article looks fine to me. All significant aspects of the reign, and scholarly debates, are covered, the tone is neutral, high-quality sources have been used throughout (WP:AGF on comprehensive coverage, but from the text it certainly looks that way), the article is well structured. The article reads well, but I recommend making a request at WP:GOCE to polish it further as befits a Featured Article. Other than that, the only missing thing I can see is the lack of WP:ALTTEXT, which should be rectified. Well done once again, I will be glad to support once these couple of things have been done. Constantine 19:45, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your words! I added the ALTTEXT and asked the guild for help. I noticed that you corrected the Greek writing of the king's name and I was wondering if you could do the same for the page Philip I Philadelphus (who should be in Greek Philip Epiphanes Philadelphus) and the page Seleucus VI Epiphanes (who sould be Seleucus Epiphanes Nikator). I have re-written Philip but wont nominate it because its too short (though I collected all the info there is about him). I will re-write Seleucus soon but also wont nominate as it will also be short (same reason as Philip's). I do not know Greek so my attempts at writing the names of kings mostly results in mistakes (ofcourse other Greek names throught the article (the names of the people of Laodice for example) are directly copied from the sources themselves so no worries there) Cheers.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 03:42, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
The file Antioco X Eusebes Filopator, tetradracma.jpg is still missing alt text. Names int he articles you mentioned have been done. IMO, Philip is definitely of a size and quality as to be a viable FA candidate, but that is your choice, of course. Cheers, Constantine 10:00, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Quebec Agreement

Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:51, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

This article is about the Quebec Agreement, which merged the British (Tube Alloys) and Canadian (Montreal Laboratory) nuclear weapons projects with the American one (Manhattan Project). All of which are now Featured articles. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:51, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Royal Naval Division War Memorial

Nominator(s): HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:04, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

After a bit of a delay, I'm back with another war memorial. This article is more substantial than most. The unique nature of the formation it commemorates seems to have generated considerable interest, with several very detailed accounts of its construction and history available independently of each other. The memorial itself has something of an unusual history—it took a long time and a lot of delicate negotiation to come to fruition, only to be dismantled at the start of the Second World War, after which it was reinstalled but in a different location. It wasn't finally reinstalled in its original location until the 21st century. Since then, it seems to have fallen into obscurity as the many colourful characters associated with it have faded into history.

I've been working on the article over the last few months, with help and advice from Another Believer and Ham II, and I'm indebted to Carcharoth for his help with research and general advice, as well as to the folks at MilHist for a successful A-class review. As ever, all feedback will be greatly appreciated. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:04, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

  • Support I reviewed this article at A class and affirm that it is of Featured Article quality. (It also received image a source reviews.) Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:59, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Support on prose per my These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 13:43, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
    • Thanks very much for your help, this edit? I don't like to revert wholesale but you removed a bit of detail. It's a significant part of the story that the RND began planning a memorial early, even tough it took a long time to come to fruition. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:10, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
      • There's a lot in that edit, covering some important FAC prose points. Which month or year did they begin planning? - Dank (push to talk) 15:32, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
        • Not meaning any offence, Dan, but I'm not seeing any fundamental prose issues there and the edit introduced more problems than it solved. The source says "Immediately after the war"; it doesn't give a more precise date but the RND were ahead of the curve. A simple "after the war" doesn't cut it. Then you removed almost the entire sentence about the RND joining the navy's commemorations, which leaves the reader wondering why it's mentioned in the first place and leaves the mention of Trafalgar Square without context. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:34, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
          • Do what you want with the bit about Trafalgar Square. If I understand correctly, you have one source saying "Immediately after the war", but you don't know when it happened and you have no other sources that talk about it. I don't think this is a case where people would object if you want to repeat "Immediately after the war", because that's all the information you have. I also don't think you would be faulted for saying "After the war", if in your judgment it's impossible to know what this particular writer meant by "immediately". It's harder, I think, to justify adding a lot of words to "Immediately after the war", at least at FAC. - Dank (push to talk) 21:34, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
            • Okay, I've restored the bit about Trafalgar Square; I'm open to distilling it if you feel it's too wordy but your version was too concise in my opinion. And I've gone with just "immediately"; my previous version was perhaps an abundance of caution on my part. Does that work for you? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 08:54, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Comments from Factotem

Source review

  • Authors Online, the publisher of Quinlan's British War Memorials, looks to me like a self-publishing house.
    • I'm pretty sure it is, but I'm confident the book is reliable. Quinlan cites his sources and his narratives line up neatly with other sources. He's also cited or recommended by by several other authors (his account of the RND memorial is specifically recommended by Ward-Jackson).
Fair enough. Given that endorsement, and the fact that the source has been checked out OK on at least two successful FACs, I see no reason to make an issue out of this. Factotem (talk) 12:39, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
  • A random check of statements sourced to the Historic England source, the only one available to me online, did not reveal any concerns with accuracy of sourcing other than the fact that punctuation in the inscription of Rupert Brooke's The Dead is not consistent between article and sources. I would point out, though, that even the two sources available online (IWM and HE) are not consistent with each other.
  • Googling royal naval division war memorial revealed only a page on the website of the architects who handled the memorial's last move missing from the sources used. I don't think that materially affects the article, and I found nothing to suggest that the article isn't a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature.
    • I'd seen that (I think it's linked on the talk page) but decided not to use it; it's a nice glossy website but it doesn't contain a lot of information.

That Authors Online issue is a bit of a worry, but otherwise the sources check out OK. Factotem (talk) 18:12, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks very much! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:34, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Sam Manekshaw

Nominator(s): Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk • mail) 10:31, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Sam Manekshaw was the Chief of the Army Staff of the Indian Army during the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971, and was subsequently the first Indian Army officer to be promoted to the rank of field marshal. His military career spanned four decades and five wars, beginning with service in the British Indian Army in World War II, and he is one of the most widely acclaimed military commanders in independent India’s history. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk • mail) 10:31, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Amor Prohibido

Nominator(s): – jona 22:34, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

This article is about the fourth and final studio album recorded by American singer Selena before she was shot and killed a year later. The album transitioned Tejano music from a moderately successful regional scene, into a powerhouse genre. Amor Prohibido is a culturally significant album that helped solidify Selena as a leading performer in the Latin music market. Still popular today, it sporadically makes appearances on Billboard's music charts, while its singles remain popular in Hispanic and Latino households. I decided to nominate Amor Prohibido for FA, after receiving positive encouragement from editors to do so, despite a rather lackluster peer review (it didn't generate any interest Confused.png) – jona 22:48, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Simon Hatley

Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 08:27, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

This article is about... a man who shot an albatross that became famous in literary history. Whether he deserved it or not, I don't know, but it's why he is remembered.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:27, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Comments from Brianboulton

I missed the peer review, so I have a few prose queries:

  • "...and assuring Hatley's literary fame." Hmm, I'm not so sure that many people remember, if they ever knew, that Coleridge's poem was based on the experiences of one Simon Hatley, so "fame" might be overdoing it. Perhaps "...assuring Hatley a place in literary history" or some such modified wording, would be more appropriate?
  • Early life: I'm still unsure about transatlantic comma usage, but to me, the comma after "Mary Herbert" looks superfluous.
  • Same section: "The residence was pulled down and rebuilt in 1704, after he had left home" – needs name, not pronoun
  • "...and third mate was a very junior officer position." A non sequitur where presently stated – this info correctly belongs to the previous sentence.
  • Career: "The first such voyage made by Hatley was during the War of the Spanish Succession, which found Britain and Spain on opposing sides, under the command of Captain Woodes Rogers." The clauses in this sentence seem oddly ordered. Surely the logical order is "The first such voyage made by Hatley, under the command of Captain Woodes Rogers, was during the War of the Spanish Succession, which found Britain and Spain on opposing sides."
  • Voyage with Rogers: first mention of the Duke and the Duchess should explain that these were Rodgers' ships
  • Why the huge manpower? 183 and 151 respectively seems vastly more crew than necessary to sail these ships.
I've made it clearer that these were effectively warships, and so the more men to fight the better.
  • First captivity: "leaving real estate in Woodstock to his son Simon, though with a life estate to his widow." What is a "life estate"? I've heard of a "life interest", but the term "life estate" I've never encountered.
Linked and explained.
  • Shelvocke expedition: "The Speedwell completed her Atlantic passage." Seems like an unnecessary sentence.
  • "In spite of Hatley's attempt..." – what was he "attempting"? Some explanation needs to be added here. You say in the Literary influences section that Hatley shot the bird in the hopes of fairer winds – this information should be brought forward.
I am trying to incorporate Shelvocke's account into the article, though it is too large to blockquote. I'll make it clearer the reader is to look at the blockquote. After all, we have nothing to add to what he wrote.

A most intriguing story, giving body and context to something that I was vaguely aware of, from school probably, but had forgotten completely. You seem to be developing quite a taste for oddball articles – where next? Brianboulton (talk) 22:09, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Thank you. I've done those things. In addition to your school days, you may remember Mr Hatley when he played a small part in the Woodes Rogers article, which I improved nine or so years ago and you reviewed at FAC.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:20, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Support: My concerns adequately answered. Nine years! Days of wine and roses. Brianboulton (talk) 08:14, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Support. I took part in the peer review and my few (v. minor) points were dealt with then. A rereading confirms the excellence of this article, which I found highly informative as well as a good read. Certainly of FA standard in my view. Tim riley talk 13:48, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments then and now.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:21, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Ficus macrophylla

Nominator(s): Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:49, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

I am trying to balance up all the animal FACs with some plants. This is an important article in the public interest. These giant figs are too difficult to grow in most gardens but critically important to wildlife in eastern Australia and should be planted more widely. And they can be weedy elsewhere. Let me know what's wrong and I can fix pronto. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:49, 11 April 2018 (UTC)


Nominator(s): Pericles of AthensTalk 14:15, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

[Epic Shakespearean announcer's voice:] BEHOLD! Cleopatra, seventh of her name! The pharaoh of Egypt; descendant of Alexander the Great's companion Ptolemy I Soter; the pious goddess who loves her father; the Living Isis (no, not that ISIS, you pleb); the Queen of Kings and mother of Julius Caesar's child Caesarion and three little rugrats belonging to Mark Antony. This article has recently succeeded in passing the Good Article nomination hurdle. Since the time that I have rewritten it and created the sub-articles "Early life of Cleopatra" and "Reign of Cleopatra" (along with a total rewrite of "Death of Cleopatra", a current GA nominee), the article has seen major improvements thanks to lively talk page discussion, debate, and consensus-building. The prose body of the article is a bit large, but I am still in the process of slightly reducing its overall size, which is roughly the same as my Featured Article on Octavian/Augustus. Given Cleopatra's enormous importance to history and impact on modern popular culture, the queen perhaps deserves a larger article than most; don't you agree? You better. Or it's off to the Temple of Artemis at Ephesus with you! Where you will have plenty of time to complain about the article's length while exiled alongside the likes of Arsinoe IV. I eagerly await the image review, because I think I have finally nailed the appropriate licensing thing for each image. If not I'm happy to make any quick, necessary fixes. Pericles of AthensTalk 14:15, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Source review from Factotem

First off, I like the idea of listing the online sources separately. I've not noticed this done before, but it makes reviewing the sources a whole lot easier than sifting through the list of refs for the web-based sourcing.

  • looks like a hobbyist site. What makes it reliable?
  • Page ranges in refs use hyphens. They need to be endashes per MOS:DASH
  • Inconsistent use of ISBN-10 and ISBN-13. I understand that it's preferred at FAC for all ISBN refs to be consistently formatted.
  • Refs #4, #147, #398 p. -> pp.
  • Ref #400 pp. -> p.
  • The ISBN for Ashton's Cleopatra and Egypt refers to the Blackwell (Oxford) edition (219 pages), but the GBooks link you provide takes us to the John Wiley & Sons (New York) edition (240 pages).
  • The ISBN for Fletcher's Cleopatra the Great: The Woman Behind the Legend refers to the 454-page US edition published by Harper (NY), but the GBooks link you provide refers to the 300-page(!?) edition published by Hodder & Staughton in 2009.
  • For Grant's Cleopatra, did you actually use the 1992 B&N edition, or did you use the original, online version as linked in the list of printed resources? If the latter, the publisher and ISBN ref you provide are incorrect - the correct info can be found on the Worldcat listing here. I'm curious, though. B&N appears to be a self-publishing outfit, but I don't believe, based on the year or what little I've found out about Michael Grant, that this can possibly be self-published.
  • The Gbooks link you provide for Hölbl's A History of the Ptolemaic Empire does not have the same ISBN as the one you provide.
  • An OCLC ref for Lippold's Die Skulpturen des Vaticanischen Museums can be found at Worldcat.
  • The Gbooks link you provide for Roller's Cleopatra: a biography has a different ISBN and publication date than those listed.
  • An OCLC ref for Sartain's On the Antique Painting in Encaustic of Cleopatra: Discovered in 1818 can be found at Worldcat.
  • The ISBN you provide for Schiff's Cleopatra: A Life appears to be for the 2010 edition published by Little, Brown and Co (NY). The 2011 Random House edition has the ISBN 9780753539569.
  • There is a doi ref for Skeat's The Last Days of Cleopatra: A Chronological Problem, according to the link to the JSTOR record you provided, which could be added.
  • In the citation for Walker's Cleopatra in Pompeii, you can add the parameter "|jstor=40311128" to add the jstor ref for this publication.

This is just a partial source review for now. I may complete a few more checks in due course. Factotem (talk) 18:20, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

@Factotem: thanks for the source review! I'll try my best to address these issues by the end of the day. Regards, Pericles of AthensTalk 19:22, 8 April 2018 (UTC)


    • @Factotem: I see what's going on here now. It's actually not my fault (or only partially my fault for trusting Google Books to do things correctly). It's the fault of Google Books. If you actually follow the "preview" link in the case of not only Royster but also Hölbl and Roller (the latter of which I own a personal, physical copy), it brings you to the correct edition that I cited. You can clearly see the correct ISBN numbers there in the previewed pages of the books. I'm not sure how to resolve this; you tell me! Because I would rather retain the GB links than get rid of them simply because the folks over at Google Books were too lazy, sleep-deprived, or drunk to care about doing things properly (lol). Should I just provide direct URLs to the previewed pages instead? Pericles of AthensTalk 12:28, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
You can usually locate the relevant edition in Gbooks by googling for it. For instance, this search for Roller's Cleopatra: A Biography returns the book as the first result, with a link for More editions. It's then a case of searching through those more editions for the correct GBook listing, in this case the 4th result gets you to the Gbook entry with the correct ISBN ref you provided. I can see that Gbooks does seem to list one edition, but links its preview to a different edition. I would argue that if you are going to provide a Gbook link (and you are not obliged to for FAC), then it should correspond to the edition you actually used. Having said that, I'm not sure how much of an issue this is. I've posted a question on the FAC talk page to seek clarification. Factotem (talk) 13:31, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Cool. In the meantime I have removed the URLs for Royster, Hölbl and Roller, because it is better to have no URL than one to a different edition of the book. I might add appropriate URLs at a later date, but I don't think it's important or necessary, as you suggest. Pericles of AthensTalk 13:45, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Don't know if you've been keeping up with the discussion on the FAC talk page, but the consensus seems to be that we don't need to be so strict in matching the exact GBook edition to the one used to source the article. The caveats are that the different editions must contain the same number of pages, and the GBook must have a preview. Fundamentally, if the preview can be used to verify the sourcing, it's useful if you want to link it. Factotem (talk) 14:47, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, I might add the URLs back to the reference section. We'll see. I don't think it's a pressing issue. I'm a bit busy reading and citing Grant (1972) at the moment. Pericles of AthensTalk 15:55, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
    • I am happy to announce that I have removed entirely from the article and replaced it with scholarly sources instead. That Harvard University website for the Center for Hellenic Studies was a real lifesaver here.
    • User:Graham Beards was kind enough to remove hyphens and add dashes to the inline citations and refs! You can check and see if there are any remaining hyphens, but they seem to have all been removed.
    • User:Ssven2 recently changed the refs in the "Further reading" section from "citation" to "cite book" instead. Should I do the same for the main "References" section?
Don't know what the difference between the two is, and the results look fine to me. Factotem (talk) 14:47, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
    • I have fixed the instances where "pp" needed to be "p" and vice versa.
    • I have removed the URL for Fletcher (2008), since I cannot find a suitable online alternative and I used my own physical copy of the book published by Harper. It's better to have no URL than a false one leading to a different edition of the book.
    • I have changed Grant's ref from the 1992 B&N version to the 1972 version by Weidenfeld and Nicolson, which is most certainly not a self-published source.
    • I have added OCLC numbers for Lippold and Sartain as requested.
    • I have changed the ISBN for Schiff (2011).
    • I have added a DOI number for Skeat (1953) and a JSTOR link for Walker (2008).
    • I am still in the process of converting all ISBN-10 numbers to ISBN-13 ones instead. Give me a little more time on that. I should be able to finish that very soon, most likely before the end of the day. Pericles of AthensTalk 12:28, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
I'm happy to announce that I have changed all ISBN-10 numbers to ISBN-13 ones instead! It didn't take nearly as long as I thought it would, thanks to the handy navigation tool Worldcat. Pericles of AthensTalk 13:11, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
@Factotem: as far as citations and sources are concerned, is everything in good standing now? Or do you have further concerns that need to be addressed? Pericles of AthensTalk 01:44, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
You've addressed all the issues I've identified above. Factotem (talk) 14:47, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Excellent! Glad to hear it. Thank you. Pericles of AthensTalk 15:55, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Regarding criteria 1c ("thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature"), I'm no egyptologist and know nothing of the historography, so I googled Cleopatra and found Cleopatra: Last Queen of Egypt by Joyce Tyldesley. To my uneducated eyes this seems to be a high quality source but does not appear to have been used. Is there any reason for this? Other than that, I did not find anything to suggest that any important source has been neglected. Factotem (talk) 14:47, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
    • That's a good question! To be honest, I wouldn't put Tyldesley's Cleopatra: Last Queen of Egypt, published by "Profile Books", in the same league as the academic heavyweights cited in the article, those which were published strictly by university presses, museum presses, or scholarly journals. That includes T. C. Skeat's "The Last Days of Cleopatra: a Chronological Problem" (1953) published by The Journal of Roman Studies, Diana Kleiner's Cleopatra and Rome (2005) published by the Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, Prudence Jones' Cleopatra: a sourcebook (2006) published by the University of Oklahoma Press, Susan Walker's "Cleopatra in Pompeii?" (2008) published by the Papers of the British School at Rome, Duane W. Roller's Cleopatra: a Biography (2010) published by the Oxford University Press, and Margaret M. Miles' Cleopatra: a sphinx revisited (2011) published by the University of California Press.
    • I would instead compare Tyldesley's book to those of Michael Grant's Cleopatra (1972) published by Weidenfeld & Nicolson, Jaynie Anderson's Tiepolo's Cleopatra (2003) published by Macmillan, Stanley M. Burstein's Reign of Cleopatra (2004) published by the Greenwood Press, Dodson and Hilton's The Complete Royal Families of Ancient Egypt (2004), published by Thames & Hudson, and Joann Fletcher's Cleopatra the Great (2008) published by Harper. These are legitimate book publishing companies that produce WP:Reliable sources, but they perhaps don't have the same amount of academic rigor as the first group that I listed.
    • Then we have book publishing companies that are recognized as purely academic ones, like Routledge, which published Whitehorne's Cleopatras (1994) and Günther Hölbl's History of the Ptolemaic Empire (2001), the Cambridge "Polity Press" that published Klaus Bringmann's A History of the Roman Republic (2007), Oxford's Blackwell that published Sally Ann-Ashton's Cleopatra and Egypt (2008), and Bloomsbury Academic that published Knippschild and Morcillo's Seduction and Power: Antiquity in the Visual and Performing Arts (2013). Again, these are to be trusted a bit more than the regular book publishing companies.
    • I wouldn't mind perusing a copy of Tyldesley's book if I had access to it, but I think the currently-cited 35 print sources and 9 online sources sufficiently demonstrate that academic consensus on each issue was investigated and a representative survey of relevant literature was at least attempted. It should be emphasized that having a decent amount of quality sources is better than having as many sources as possible. At this point adding Tyldesley's book to the pile almost seems like overkill, but I will entertain the idea if my university library has a physical copy of it. Pericles of AthensTalk 15:55, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
I'm happy with that answer. The Gbooks listing has a preview (at least from here) that might save you a trip to the library. I did scan a few pages and compared what they said with how you covered it in the article. It was only a very cursory review, but I didn't get any sense that you had missed anything by not using Tyldesley's work. So far so good, but I intend at some stage to check a few random refs in the article against the sources. Won't be doing that in the immediate future, though. Factotem (talk) 16:18, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
If you're going to do that, I would highly suggest obtaining a copy of Roller's book, which more or less serves as a backbone for much of the article, certainly the biographical part. If not that, then I would suggest looking into Fletcher or Burstein's respective works, which are also heavily cited in the article. They really helped to reinforce Roller's assertions, and I made a conscious effort, as you may see in the footnotes, to blend the ideas of various sources where they may disagree on certain points. For instance, the most glaring disagreement among these sources usually involves dates, even the months in which certain events took place. Please be wary of that, and also cognizant of the fact that the sub-articles also explain these things in greater detail (naturally). Pericles of AthensTalk 16:27, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Just to let you know, I've recently added Michel Chauveau's Egypt in the Age of Cleopatra (2000) to the article. I'll probably cite it a few more times as well. Pericles of AthensTalk 23:36, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
That checks out OK. I just noticed though that the ISBN formatting is a mix of hyphened and hyphenless. I think it's preferred to be consistent here too. I don't understand the ISBN hyphen rules myself, and tend to just remove all hyphens in articles I edit. The magic link still functions, and someone usually comes along and hyphenates them anyway. I would also ask, is this article really ready for FAC? There seems to be a significant number of edits being made every day since it was submitted. Factotem (talk) 13:05, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
@Factotem: Actually, the prose body of the article has been basically static since the FA nomination. I've been adding lots of footnotes and citations lately, but that doesn't change the core nature of the article. It just reinforces the scholarly citations that were already in place. The only other editing I've done lately was tinkering with the lead, to make it a bit shorter and to include a salient point about Cleopatra's multilingualism that is explained more fully in the body of the article. As for ISBNs, I have removed all hyphens as you have suggested, in order to be consistent. If someone wants to add them back they are welcome to do so, so long as they change every one of them and not just a sampling. Regards, Pericles of AthensTalk 13:40, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
I'd also like to let you know that I've created an article for Duane W. Roller, as a supplement just in case anyone is curious about his credentials. He is perhaps cited more than any one author in this article, so it would be a crime not to make an article for him. If someone complains about not having a GB link to his book I might add it back, but I don't feel the need to do so, especially if it's a slightly different edition than the physical print copy in my possession that I used. Pericles of AthensTalk 15:33, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Small side note: is Wikipedia dead? I appreciate all your commentary, Factotem, but you're the only one doing so. What happened to this website? At this point I'd be excited just to get someone opposing my article, let alone supporting it. At least having someone opposing it would be an indication that somebody has read it and gives a damn. Pericles of AthensTalk 22:36, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
@PericlesofAthens: I would like to think that Wikipedia is not dead. I have been paying some attention to this article as it has progressed in status. I would add feedback, but I know nothing at all about the "Featured Article" process and I am not sure if I fully understand the criteria. --Katolophyromai (talk) 01:16, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
There's nothing to say that you can't review simply on criteria 1a (well-written), which seems to be the basis of many reviews I've seen. Whether we who are not professional writers can validly assess whether an article is of a professional standard is perhaps a matter of debate, but every one of us can have a valid opinion on whether it is engaging, not to mention the ease with which a fresh pair of eyes can root out infelicitous prose that the main editor is too involved to spot. Factotem (talk) 17:07, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Comments by Constantine

I am far from being an expert on the period, but I think I am well versed about the Hellenistic era, the late Roman Republic, and the people and events treated here. As such, I found the article overall well written, well researched, and quite comprehensive. There was nothing major that stood out immediately as missing, and in the sources section I see many of the same works that I know or have myself read as the chief scholarly sources about the period and subject. However, as the bibliography about the period is huge, and scholarly debate about Cleopatra's role in it is ongoing, I can only WP:AGF on the coverage. A few relatively minor observations on content and style follow:

  • One thing I would like to see is whether there is any information about her domestic governance; in the article, as in the general historiography, she is mostly treated via her interactions with the Roman world, but how did she govern Egypt? I assume the ancient authors, or at least the papyri, have some indications about this. Also, what were her relations to the native Egyptians? Given that the native population was politically marginalized, and that the main domestic political audience were the Greco-Macedonian colonists, there may not be much there to set her apart from her predecessors, but it would be worth to at least state so explicitly, so far as possible.
  • "Ptolemaic pharaohs spoke Greek and governed Egypt as Hellenistic-Greek monarchs from the multicultural and largely-Greek city of Alexandria established by Alexander the Great of Macedon, refusing to learn the native Egyptian language" This sentence is over-long and mixes two different things: one, the status of the Ptolemaic pharaohs, and two, that Alexandria was a largely Greek city established by Alexander the Great. I strongly recommend separating these two facts in distinct sentences, per my reverted edit.
  • "with the legal status of friendly and allied monarchs to Rome" to be more techniclaly correct, I would suggest "with the legal status of a 'friend and ally of the Roman people' (Latin: socius et amicus populi Romani), in effect a client king of Rome" or something like that, as that is a specific technical term that the Romans used with a number of client rulers.
  • "Domitius Ahenobarbus, wary of Octavian's propaganda, attempted to persuade Antony to have Cleopatra excluded from the campaign against Octavian." Does this mean that Ahenobarbus had been influenced by Octavian's propaganda, or that he judged Cleopatra's presence as sort of confirming Octavian's slanders? In view of his defection, his motivation is important
  • "Cicero's writings provide an unflattering portrait of Cleopatra, who knew him personally." I would suggest "The writings of Cicero, who knew her personally, provide..."
  • "Hellenistic-Greek", "Ptolemaic-Egyptian", "Macedonian-Greek", etc. I've come across such compounds a few times in the article and I think they are, if not incorrect, then certainly unusual. AFAIK, the common term is without the hyphens. Compounds like "largely-Greek" are definitely wrong and discouraged by MOS:HYPHEN; also "the Classical-style of the painting": either a "Classical-style painting" (like "Renaissance-period painter" that follows), or "the Classical style of the painting".
  • Somewhere in the "Depictions in ancient art" section a link to damnatio memoriae would be fitting
  • "Surviving coinage of Cleopatra's reign include those from every regnal year, from 51 to 30 BC" somewhat awkward, perhaps "Surviving coinage of Cleopatra's reign includes coins/specimens e from every regnal year, from 51 to 30 BC"
  • In the "Depictions in ancient art" section there are, IMO, too many images, which break up the continuity of the article to the detriment of reader experience. Four views of the Vatican Cleopatra are definitely too much in any article that is not specifically about that bust. Sincere kudos for finding and uploading so many images of her, but they should accompany the article and illustrate the narrative, not dominate it. We can leave the rest to the Commons category, or articles dedicated to her artistic representations or even individual works of art.
  • When linking to articles in other-language Wikipedias, I strongly suggest using the template rather than including them as external links. This leaves the WP:REDLINK locally for enwiki and makes clear that it is an article in a foreign language
  • "dating back to [[English Renaissance theatre|the Renaissance]]" the Renaissance as a whole is a European phenomenon; if you link specifically to English theatre, make it explicit.
  • "[[Macedonians (Greeks)|Macedonian-Greek]] dynasty of the Ptolemies" I recommend altering the link to Ancient Macedonians, the Macedonians (Greeks) article refers rather to the modern regional identity. Also, as a general rule, since the same term comes further along later ("the Macedonian-Greek founder") with a different link, I caution against linking the same term to two different articles. It is potentially confusing to the uninitiated reader.
  • "whose relatives are described as "honey skinned"" by whom?
  • " Ancient sources also describe Cleopatra as having had a stronger personality" is that only Plutarch, or also found in other authors?
  • A small addition that Egypt was annexed as Augustus' personal domain rather than as a regular province might be useful, as well as Cornelius Gallus' appointment as the first praefectus augustalis, to give a connection to the new political regime of Egypt for any interested reader.

I will go over the article a couple of time over the next few days, to better digest its content and make sure I have not missed something. Otherwise, it is a splendid piece of work and PericlesofAthens deserves great praise for it. Eglerio! Constantine 11:41, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

    • @Cplakidas: thanks for the review! I am happy to announce that I have amended the article according to all of your suggestions barring the first, where you suggested that I add information about Cleopatra's role as a monarch and administrator (and builder, lawgiver, chief religious authority, etc.). That information can already be found in the sub/split article, Reign of Cleopatra#Egypt under the monarchy of Cleopatra. I placed this link and suggestion in the "See also" section. Is that not enough? The main article is about the person Cleopatra, not about the Ptolemaic kingdom, although the "Reign" article seemed like a good place to elucidate this and provide intricate details about her role within her kingdom. If you want me to add a new section about it in this, the main article, I'd like to see the suggestions of others first, because User:Factotem has already raised concerns about the rather large size of the prose body of this article. Pericles of AthensTalk 16:18, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
      • I reverted your edit about the founding of Alexandria (and Greek as the official language of the Ptolemies) due to the fact that you split the sentence in half without connecting the previous statement to the train of inline citations and source information provided in the lengthy footnote that accompanied it. I have since resolved this problem and added yet another footnote to parse this information correctly. I hope you appreciate the enormous headache involved in this, because I had to go back and reread numerous passages throughout four different books to make sure each statement is aligned with the correct pagination of each source. This task was not as simple as just splitting a sentence and being done with it.
      • I have reworded the part about the 'friend and ally of the Roman people' (Latin: socius et amicus populi Romani); thanks for the suggestion and Latin language text for the title!
      • I have clarified the bit regarding Domitius Ahenobarbus being worried about the impact of Octavian's propaganda.
      • I reworded the sentence about the writings of Cicero.
      • I have done a thorough sweep of the article and removed all seemingly unnecessary instances where hyphens have been used. Thanks for pointing this out. This sort of habitual tick of mine is not apparent to me when I'm reading my own work, so I appreciate your efforts in pointing towards specific examples. I have fixed many others that you did not mention.
      • I have added a link to damnatio memoriae where it was most appropriate, in the "Statues" subsection.
      • I reworded the part about coinage and regnal years.
      • Per your suggestion, I have removed four images from the "Ancient depictions of Cleopatra" section. I hope it is to your liking now.
      • I have added the template to links leading to foreign-language Wiki articles.
      • I have placed the link "English Renaissance theatre" in a more appropriate location. It's a shame that there is no general article about Renaissance theatre. If I had all the spare time in the world I would create such an article and flesh it out, but I do not have the time to give it that sort of love and attention, the kind that it deserves.
      • I have removed the link Macedonians (Greeks) and retained the link Ancient Macedonians instead.
      • I have removed the phrase "honey-skinned" for now. This was one of the few statements added to the article by another editor, who cited the biography by Stacy Schiff, although I do not possess a copy of it. Since I cannot validate it or elaborate on which ancient source said this, I have decided to remove it for the time being, until that editor can explain his edit and reintroduce this properly.
      • I have changed "ancient sources" to "Plutarch" as you suggested, since I think he is the only one who explains this. It certainly appears that way after reading the source book from Jones.
      • In this article, I have added a footnote about Cornelius Gallus being the first governor of Egypt, ruled directly by Octavian/Augustus, while placing it prominently (outside of a footnote) in the sub-article Reign of Cleopatra.
      • Please let me know if there's anything else you think needs to be amended, removed, or added to the article! Warm regards, Pericles of AthensTalk 16:18, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Comments by Векочел

You have worked hard on the article and provided sources. I cannot think of anything negative about the article. This reflects your commitment to Wikipedia.
Векочел (talk) 00:29, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

@Векочел: Well that's fantastic! Thank you for the compliment, and for both reading and editing the article. I'm glad you have enjoyed it. I'm assuming this means you "support" the nomination, then? Pericles of AthensTalk 00:37, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
Yes, I do support the nomination of "Cleopatra" as a featured article. Векочел (talk) 00:40, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
@Векочел: Awesome! Once again, thank you for reviewing the article and providing helpful edits as well. Best wishes, Pericles of AthensTalk 00:46, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

André Messager

Nominator(s): Ssilvers (talk) and Tim riley talk 09:51, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

André Messager was a French composer and conductor who became the last major exponent of opéra comique and French operetta. His best-known works today are probably the operetta Véronique and the ballet The Two Pigeons, but several of his other stage works enjoyed international success at the turn of the 20th century. He was also a leading conductor, in charge of Paris's top orchestra and both its major opera houses. He was a prominent musical figure not only in Paris but in London, running the Royal Opera House for six years and supplying the West End stage with a succession of his hits (and occasional misses). The article has had a recent peer review by an all-star team of reviewers, and we think it is now ready for FAC. We look forward to your comments. Ssilvers (talk) and Tim riley talk 09:51, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Although it wouldn't matter if it became FA, I notice that this article's talk page says that it has passed a Good Article review, but doesn't have the green symbol in the corner of the article! Is there a reason for this? Mojo0306 (talk) 16:35, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
There certainly used to be. I wonder if it vanished for some technical reason when the "up for FAC" message appeared on the page. A bit odd if so. Tim riley talk 17:20, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
It was inadvertently removed with this edit. Fixed now. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:09, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
Oh, Lord! Was that me? I oughtn't to be let out. Thank you for rescuing me. Tim riley talk 19:42, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Comments from JM

  • "Messager's music became known for its melodic and orchestral invention, musical craftsmanship, and characteristically French elegance and grace." I'm not sure how neutral this is.
    • This uncited statement in the lead is backed up in the main text with cited statements. This is how I have habitually interpreted the rules about leads - except for direct quotes, don't usually cite. Tim riley talk 17:20, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
      • My worry wasn't so much that it was uncited, it was that presenting the claims in Wikipedia's "neutral" voice may not be appropriate. Perhaps I'm being oversensitive. Josh Milburn (talk) 18:37, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
        • Josh Milburn, given the material below in the article, can you suggest a more neutral formulation for "characteristically French elegance and grace"? -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:38, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
          • I wouldn't object to a cited direct quote. Josh Milburn (talk) 19:21, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
            • The Penguin Opera Guide has this: "Elegance, neatness, tripping melodiousness, orchestral refinement, and a decidedly French grace were the composer's hallmarks". Other quotes are on his "preference for light and airy compositions, on the borderland between comic opera and operetta. His music is always elegant, witty, in the best French style", "Messager’s style is characterized by fine orchestration (evident also in the ballet music), a gift for easy-flowing melody, often in a waltz rhythm, and a skill in writing music of a dance-like character," and "Tuneful it always is; trivial never. Supporting the lilting melodies is some masterly orchestration, rich in design, and typically French, with its emotional use of the woodwind, and its quaintly dramatic modulations". I think our existing sentence encapsulates these pretty faithfully. Tim riley talk 13:11, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "disastrous stock market speculation" Ditto (also, isn't that a compound adjective? Dash needed!)
    • Hyphens, as Sir Ernest Gowers said, will surely drive you mad if you take them seriously. I think you're right here. The text is a verbatim translation of one of the sources "des spéculations boursières désastreuses ruinent la famille Messager". Sources in English concur. Tim riley talk 17:20, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "In 1876 he won the gold medal of the Société des Auteurs, Compositeurs et Editeurs de Musique with a symphony, the work being warmly received when performed by the Concerts Colonne at the Théâtre du Châtelet in January 1878." Did this have a name?
    • The symphony? No. Only a key. Tim riley talk 17:20, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
      • We note in the list of Works that it was in A major. At one point in the article we call it his "Symphony in A", and I have added "in A" to another mention. Tim, do you now like the way we refer to it in all 4 instances? -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:03, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
        • I'm rather in two minds about this, but I can think of examples of a composer's only symphony's being generally referred to by its key – Franck's in D minor, for instance, or Bizet's in C – though I can't really think why. Still if it's good enough for Franck and Bizet it's good enough for Messager. Tim riley talk 20:32, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "cantatas" Link?
  • Are "opéras comique" and "opérette" common enough in English to go unitalicised? It seems our articles on the forms italicise.
    • Tricky. The WP article on the former italicises; the short bit on the latter doesn't. The terms come up a lot in the article, and unless people object to roman I'd rather avoid a sea of italics. Tim riley talk 17:20, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "burlesques motifs" Jargon!
    • I'm surprised at this: both common words, surely, and clear in context?
      • I agree with TR. The use of the word "burlesque" to mean parody is the first meaning given in two dictionaries I just consulted. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:03, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
        • I understood the meaning, so I suppose it can't be specialist. I retract my worry! Josh Milburn (talk) 19:21, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "at Ste Marie-des-Batignolles a small church in the north west of Paris" Are you missing a comma, here? Also, I'd recommend against the piped link to the neighbourhood in place of the church.
    • I agree. Not sure how that happened. Tim riley talk 17:20, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "He later recalled that he had received by post an unsolicited libretto:" I'm struggling to understand this story. Some unknown person sent him an unfinished work, he finished it, then performed it? Or have I misunderstood?
    • No, that's his story. He found out who wrote it, of course. Tim riley talk 17:20, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
      • The reason the story is interesting is that, after a series of unsuccessful works, an unsolicited libretto suddenly led to one of Messager's most popular works and the most commercially successful period of his composing career. Any suggestions as to how to make it clearer? -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:03, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
        • Reading back, I understand this much better now. The problem was clearly at my end. Josh Milburn (talk) 19:21, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "Madeleine Hope Andrée" You specify the birth/death dates when you mention his first child- why not do that here?
    • Yes, I think we have her d.o.b. and d.o.d. in the sources. Shall add. Tim riley talk 17:20, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "sciatica" Link?
    • Could do. Do you think anyone will click on it? Tim riley talk 17:20, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
      • I'd rather no* have people clicking away from our article to explore the unrelated medical topic of sciatica, especially as it did not significantly affect Messager's career and is not mentioned again. If it had been a life-long ailment, I would want to provide a link. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:03, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
        • Again- I suppose I'm not convinced, but I am happy to concede. Josh Milburn (talk) 19:21, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Is Deburau worth linking? Don't be scared of redlinks! (This may apply to other compositions, but I'll not mention it again.)
    • Worth thinking about. It's a strange hybrid, and the redlink title will need to be carefully judged, esp. with the film and straight stage play of the piece to consider.
      • I would only redlink a work that I thought was likely notable. I think the criteria for linking/notability for theatre works should be a balance of the following factors: (1) Did it have a long and successful run? (2) In a major theatre? (3) Did it have a starry cast and/or creative team? (4) Did it receive significant coverage by the major reviewers? (5) Did it have numerous revivals or popular adaptations? (6) Did anything else of historic significance occur during the run? In this case, I assume that it starred Printemps, but was it otherwise an unremarkable, short-lived, rarely revived work, Tim? Were the film and stage play adaptations based on Messager's work or just other people's adaptations of common source material? -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:03, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
        • They all revolved around Guitry. I have been toying with writing a brief article about it, but it isn't top of my list. Tim riley talk 20:32, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "but in London the official censor, the Lord Chamberlain, declared it "unfit for the English public", and banned C. B. Cochran's planned production starring Printemps and Guitry" Why?
    • French. Too sexy. The source doesn't specify, but I get the impression that a middle-aged man posing as his own son for amorous reasons (if I have it right) was too much for the Lord Chamberlain.
      • Tim, should we add that the libretto contained adult situations? -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:03, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
        • I haven't read the libretto, and I found this delightful gem in the archives of the New York Times. The reported facts are as stated in the present text of the article, and to go any further would be speculative. Tim riley talk 20:37, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "His "Eh que ne parliez-vous?", from La Basoche was quoted" Curious comma use, and I think quoted is a little jargony.
    • You can quote a tune as well as a line of prose or verse. Seems the right term to me. Punctuation adjusted. Tim riley talk 20:37, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "commented that from classic opéras comiques, such as" Possibly overlinking?
    • This has come up once before. There has grown up an entirely unofficial, and no doubt ultra vires, practice in musical Life and Works articles that it is helpful to link important terms at first mention in the Works section. The logic, I suppose, is that a Life and Works article is practically two articles in one, and not every reader of one section will want to read both. Tim riley talk 17:20, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
Two comments on the list of works: Hélène is incidental music to the play - not any kind of complete operatic work. According to Les Annales 1885 (p355-356) Le Petit Poucet is really a divertisement, with music by Verdi, Offenbach, Audran etc; the 3rd act ballet is original music by Messager - and possibly other bits of incidental music.Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:09, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
Might be worth adding a footnote about Le Petit Poucet; I'll knock one up. I think Hélène is adequately covered under "Stage works (except ballets) ... drame lyrique." Tim riley talk 08:49, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
PS Sorry another thing - Fortunio is in five acts not four - I think the Erato recording based on the Lyon production is at fault for confusing the issue. You can check the vocal score at IMSLP. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:35, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
This is rather a mystery. The copy of the libretto (pub. 1907) I am looking at describes the work as "Comedie lyrique en quatre actes et cinq tableux", and a quick flick through the text bears this out. But the vocal score (a better scan than IMSLP's is here), as you say, divides the work into five acts. Logic suggests that the libretto was printed first, and that the vocal score represents the final version. (This certainly applied on this side of la Manche, with the texts and scores of the Savoy Operas.) But this looks like a theatre bill or programme, judging by the header, and has the piece as en quatre actes. I've tried to look at the contemporary reviews via the BNF's online archive, but it's suffering from technical problems today. I'll try again later. Tim riley talk 08:49, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
This may go some way to solving the mystery. The original version is here said to have 5 acts, and the 1910 revival was in a revised 4-act version. (The four-act vocal score is clearly labelled "2ème édition".) Both versions have been given since. I now think I misinterpreted the bibliographic details of the 4-act libretto: the date 1907 was the copyright date, and not necessarily the publication date. So I think what we need here is a footnote saying that the piece was originally in 5 acts, later revised to 4. Tim riley talk 09:59, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Stopping there for a time; a really great read so far. Very engaging, even to someone as ignorant of the topic as I am... Josh Milburn (talk) 16:40, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments so far. Looking forward to more, but no rush of course. Tim riley talk 17:20, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
Thank you, Josh Milburn! -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:03, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Continued comments from JM

  • "one of the most poetic, most expressive works that have been written in France in the last twenty years" Is that quote correct? Shouldn't it be has been?
    • The arithmetic wouldn't work if you tried it the way you suggest: it is one of "the works that have been written". One of "the works that has been written" won't do. Tim riley talk 19:20, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
      • I believe that this is a difference between US and Brit English. We would certainly write "has", but I rely on Tim's understanding of Brit usage. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:05, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
        • You'd write "the works that has been written"? Surely not. Tim riley talk 20:16, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
          • In US usage, it is "one ... that has been written." -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:23, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
            • After pondering this overnight, I am reversing myself. The clause boils down to: one of [them] that have been written in France." Faure's point is not that it is "one ... that has been written in France", but rather that it is among the most expressive works that have been written. So I think Tim would be right in any case. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:53, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
              • As long as the quote's accurate, there's no harm done, I suppose! Josh Milburn (talk) 19:17, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "but the ballet, unencumbered by the portentousness of the libretto which weighs down the rest of the piece, has remained in the repertory". Shouldn't that be that, rather than which? I wonder how accessible this sentence will be to some readers.
    • I don't mind "that" for "which", here, though the supposed distinction is not supported by Fowler and has been ignored by Dickens et al. I think Americans are keener on the distinction than English writers are: Ssilvers, any comments? Tim riley talk 19:20, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
      • It should be ", which" to complete the parenthetical phrase. Now fixed. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:05, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "The decade began well" Perhaps you could specify the decade?
    • Doesn't the heading "1890s" immediately above suffice? I'm surprised. Tim riley talk 19:20, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
      • I agree with Tim that it is clear from both the heading and the next date given. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:05, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
        • It wouldn't how I'd do it, but I'm happy to concede the point. Josh Milburn (talk) 19:17, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
  • You don't close the quote that begins "the influence of Die Meistersinger"
  • "The plot was not strikingly original: critics commented that its story of babies switched at birth was already very familiar from Gilbert and Sullivan operas." It's not clear what your reference for this claim is; is it the references in the footnote? At the moment, they look like references for details about Gilbert and Sullivan operas rather than references for the critical response to Les p'tites Michu.
    • Point taken. Will add a citation for the general comment rather than the particulars. Tim riley talk 19:20, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
And now done. Tim riley talk 20:44, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
  • I found the description of Les p'tites Michu a little tricky to follow; it feels like it assumes that readers are familiar with the musical.
    • Hmm. I'll need to study this further and come back to you. Tim riley talk 19:20, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
      • We don't attempt to provide plot summaries -- not even for Veronique. So, I think it falls under the heading of, "if you want more info, click on the blue link", doesn't it? -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:05, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
        • Again, happy to concede the point. Josh Milburn (talk) 19:17, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
  • No action needed, just wanted to comment what a great footnote #20 is!
    • Thank you, but don't get me started on that critic! G W Lyttelton,(Humph's father), once wrote to a friend, "Have you any 'foolometers'—people whose advice you ask, knowing that exactly the opposite to it will be the right course?" Well...
  • "up to the end of his life, too"[155] Like Fauré," Missed full stop?
    • Indeed. Now added. You have a wonderfully eagle eye, and I hope your Wiki-colleagues realise it. Tim riley talk 19:20, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Should the quote beginning "André Messager is the most French of conductors" perhaps be a blockquote?
  • "Some later additions are listed below." I wonder if this should be avoided?
    • Alternative? Suggestions welcome. Tim riley talk 19:20, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
      • I agree with JM: Let's delete the sentence. I think it is clear enough from context that anything issued after 1991 would be an "addition". Is that ok, Tim? -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:05, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
        • Fine with me: by all means prune. Tim riley talk 20:20, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
  • What is a "role creator"?
    • Someone who created the role. Tim riley talk 19:20, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
      • It was clear enough to me, when I first read it, but I wonder if a general reader who is not too familiar with theatre articles would understand. Could write something like "those who first played the roles in the original productions", but that seems so blobby. JM, can you suggest anything clear and elegant? -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:05, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
        • To me (and I'm not familiar with theatre!) the role would be "created" by the writer, but I confess I can't think of an easy way of framing this. Is it particularly important that they were role creators? Josh Milburn (talk) 19:17, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
          • Yes, because it is a recording by the person who actually introduced the song in the original production. The role creator was the first person to have imbued the song with their own performing style and therefore sets a model for how the song may be interpreted by later performers. For a modern example, a recording of "Let it Go (Disney song)" by Idina Menzel should be identified as a recording by the role creator (sometimes called "role originator"), whereas a recording by, say, Katy Perry, would be a cover version. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:51, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "as well as other contemporaries, Aino Ackté,[177] Emma Eames,[178] and John McCormack,[179] whose recordings have been reissued on compact disc" I wonder whether some dashes could help this sentence?
    • Yes, good. The poor old comma does get a bashing. I have often thought we need a super-comma that would subsume minor ones, but parenthetic dashes will do very well here. Tim riley talk 19:20, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

All just suggestions! Josh Milburn (talk) 18:37, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

And mostly exceptionally useful ones: thank you JM! Back anon to round off, and my co-nom will have responses, too. Tim riley talk 19:20, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Excellent comments. Thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:05, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Support from me. Josh Milburn (talk) 19:23, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Support I was one of the peer reviewers. Excellent article.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:23, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Thank you very much, Wehwalt, for support here and input at PR. Greatly appreciated. Tim riley talk 18:00, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Thank you both! -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:59, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Comments from Smerus

Support, certainly, an excellent article. Two minor niggles on a first reading (I might have further niggles on a further reading)

  • Niedermeyer's school. I've always heard of it as the École Choron or (as it was later known) the École Niedermeyer, on which there is an article in fr.wikipedia. According to that article it took the name "École de musique classique" only in 1880, long after Messager's time, and changed back to École Niedermeyer around 1900.
  • I really must get round to writing an En Wikipedia article, given its importance in the lives of two (and I hope three) composers I have successfully taken through FAC. I'll make sure the nomenclature here is right for its period. (Very well spotted, if I may say so.) Tim riley talk 15:26, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Later: now attended to. Tim riley talk 16:00, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Les p'tites Michu - you mention that he received the libretto without solicitation, but as it was a such a success I think you might reasonably name the librettists.
  • Point taken, though we name all Messager's librettists in the table below. M. Ssilvers, what think you? Tim riley talk 15:26, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
  • This is potentially a Pandora's Box in 2 ways. First, we do not mention the names of librettists, throughout the article, except in the table at the bottom and in footnote 18. If we mention the names for Michu, should we mention the names of the librettists of Veronique, Beaucaire and the others? Or, should we name the librettists for only the 4, 6 or 8 (or 10?) most popular/successful ones? Second, if we mention the French librettists, then, when we talk about the extraordinary London success of several of the pieces, which were considerably adapted for the London stage, should we name the English librettists? As it is, we appear to discriminate equally against all librettists.... -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:18, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
  • We've subsequently concentrated all the info about librettists and translators in the table in the works section, with mentions in passing in the text only where it seemed particularly apropos. Tim riley talk 17:17, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

--Smerus (talk) 13:21, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks very much for this, Smerus. And further niggles will be most welcome. Tim riley talk 15:26, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for the comments and support! -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:06, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Comments from SchroCat

  • Support. Another happy camper at PR, further read-throughs show this to have been improved from that high standard. Meets the FA criteria, and an interesting and engaging read. - SchroCat (talk) 14:42, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Thank you very much, SchroCat, for input at PR and your support here. Most gratefully received. Tim riley talk 15:34, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, SchroCat! -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:06, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Comments from Brianboulton

Support with a few suggestions for consideration:

  • "the first complete French performance of Così fan tutte". Does this mean the first performance in French, or the first performance in France?
  • The latter, I think, but I'll check and clarify. Tim riley talk 11:10, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Kaminski in his Mille et Un Opéras states that the Théâtre-Italien in Paris performed it from 1809-1862 (there is also a mention of it on this page In TJ Walsh's Second Empire Opera he describes a Carvalho production which changes the plot to that of Love's Labour Lost by Barbier and Carré (Peines d'amour perdues) - although apparently the music remained intact. The 1920 Cosi at the OC was (naturally) in French according to Kaminski. I hope this helps, perhaps not. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 16:58, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Interesting. That's presumably why the source particularly mentions the first complete Così in France. I am tempted to point out that Così didn't make it to America till 1922, but will resist the temptation. Tim riley talk 17:18, 15 April 2018 (UTC) OK - I imagine we'll never know how complete the Théâtre-Italien production was; let's give AM credit for this one.Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:13, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
  • " elder contemporaries" → " older contemporaries"?
  • "elder" gets the thumbs-up from Fowler, but I don't feel strongly about it, and would not be desolate if we changed it to "older". Tim riley talk 11:10, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
  • I agree with BB. Elder in America is now only used for siblings and statesmen. It looks antiquated to me. I'd vote "older contemporaries" if it is also correct in Brit. English. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:19, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Antiquated? My prose? Unthinkable. You have the casting vote, Ss, so by all means change. Tim riley talk 17:52, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Done. Not antiquated, I meant "too elegant". -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:16, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "it failed again, but the ballet, unencumbered by the portentousness of the libretto, which weighs down the rest of the piece...etc" Is this a WP judgement, or does the source say it?
  • "may be partly due to the effectiveness of their respective libretti" – I think "the relative" effectiveness of their respective libretti" makes the required point.
  • Recordings section: I would have preferred a brief summary, with a link to a subarticle detailing the various recordings. The present format is unrewarding to the general reader, and rather dense for someone seeking specific information.
  • I wouldn't violently object to that. Ssilvers, what think you? Not a difficult task if we agree with BB's suggestion. Tim riley talk 11:10, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
  • I really don't think the recordings section should get its own article. Someone just added a completely redundant "List of works" sub-article that doesn't help our readers at all and, if anything, will likely introduce a divergence of information about Messager's works that will distract readers in the future. We, the editors of the main article, will not maintain that article, so it may attract errors and cruft in the future. Let's just make sure that the first paragraph of the recordings section is a good summary, and then if people want to skip the next three more detailed paragraphs, let them do so. I've re-organized slightly to make the first paragraph a more "general" paragraph, followed by the details, and having just re-read the section, I don't think it's that much of a slog to get through. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:46, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Ss: let us have a word about this by email rather than taking up space here. I don't see any problem in rejigging to meet BB's point but keeping the details on the main AM page. Tim riley talk 19:52, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Otherwise, a credit to both main editors. Brianboulton (talk) 19:56, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, BB, for input at PR and your suggestions and support, above. Greatly appreciated. Tim riley talk 11:21, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Thank you, BB, but almost all of the hard work is Tim's! -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:19, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Comment from KJP1

Nothing to add to the, as usually, excellent prose and certainly nothing to contribute to the musical content. Would it help if I attempted a sources review? I've not done one previously but very happy to give it a go, following BB's essay as guidance. My only caveats - it may take a little while, as a consequence of my inexperience and your multiplicity of sources, and someone else may make a better job of it. KJP1 (talk) 13:26, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

As we lack both an image and a source review your kind offer of the latter is most gratefully received. Time is not of the essence, and I think I speak for both nominators when I say we shall happily wait as long as it takes for your review. Tim riley talk 13:32, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Fine - shall set to. It'll be in batches, I'm afraid. KJP1 (talk) 13:43, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Re images - If you wished to kill two birds with one stone, you could change the present photo of Mary Garden to one of her as Mélisande: or, but you may have a good reason to keep the current lower-resolution photo. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 18:30, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
...and here is the Mary Garden category at the Commons: —Cote d'Azur (talk) 18:45, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Good idea, but the image is too long and would not fit easily. Tim, perhaps one of the other Commons images from a role was conducted by Messager? -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:57, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
We used to have a photo of M Garden as Mélisande, but if memory serves it was voted down. The existing one is conveniently small. Tim riley talk 19:06, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
I assume Garden as Mélisande has been rejected because the photographer of the cover of the magazine is potentially not dead enough (ie 1948?)... pity. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:11, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Source review - batch 1

Batch 1 - Published sources given in the sources section are all of high-quality and the ISBNs/OCLCs all check out on Worldcat. A few queries:

  • Book 2: Bradley, Ian - Worldcat lists G, S and Bradley as the authors, while Googlebooks gives G&S as the authors and Bradley as the editor?
  • If one were, perish the thought, being pedantic, neither WorldCat nor our article is strictly correct. The book consists of Gilbert's libretti on the right-hand pages and Bradley's explanations, glosses, notes and anecdotes on the left-hand ones. Sullivan's music is not reproduced. I can change the author to WSG and make Bradley the editor if you wish, but I think the import is clear from the title of the book, and it's Bradley rather than Gilbert we're referring to here. Tim riley talk 15:45, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
No, absolutely get the point. Leave as is. KJP1 (talk) 16:37, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
I agree. Bradley is the author of all the analysis and commentary. It's his book. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:28, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Book 7: Franceschina, John - oddly, Google books is giving me a publication date of December 2017, rather than 2018, although the snippet does have 2018. And I think the publisher is a single word BearManor, or actually BearManor Media.
  • Happy to change the spacing, damnedsillyspelling notwithstanding, but not sure what to do about the year. Your call. Tim riley talk 15:45, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
I think the damnedsillyspacing should change as it's their damnedsillyspacing but the book clearly has 2018 on the frontispiece so I'd leave that! KJP1 (talk) 16:37, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Done. 19:36, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Book 12: Holoman, D. Kern - there's no consistency at all in the Worldcat listings but, for internal consistency per your listing, I wonder if Concerts du Conservatoire should be capitalised?
    • French capitalisation is an arcane mystery to the Anglo-Saxon. Our MoS says one thing and general French usage says the opposite, and both are right, or at least not wrong. There is no firm rule as there is in English or German. Consistency is desirable, but not, in my view, at the expense of going against an author's preferred version. Tim riley talk 15:45, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Fine. KJP1 (talk) 16:37, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Just to play Devil's Advocate, since we are following the MOS rule on capitalization of the opera names, now, and since English readers expect caps, why not go with the caps in the book list? I think the book authors will be very happy that we are bringing attention to their works. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:28, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
I'm happy with that if you care to do the honours, Ss. Tim riley talk 19:14, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Done. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:30, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Book 19: Morrison, Richard - the full title is Orchestra: The LSO - a Century of Triumph and Turbulence. Would it help the reader to know its focus is the LSO?
    • On the copy on my shelves the only title on the spine is Orchestra, with the other six words appearing in smaller print on the title page. But no harm in adding the subtitle if wanted. Yours to command. Tim riley talk 15:45, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
As above, let's have it as the actual book has it, i.e. the single word. KJP1 (talk) 16:37, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Again, I don't feel strongly, but I think KJP1's first instinct is right: The subtitle gives essential information to our users. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:28, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
OK. I'll add. Tim riley talk 19:14, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Book 20: Rollo Myers - again there's no consistency, but he appears more commonly to publish as Rollo H. Myers.
    • I noticed that when I was looking him up, but again, I feel we should abide by the author's preference even if he changed it later or earlier. Tim riley talk 15:45, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Understood. KJP1 (talk) 16:37, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Book 25 - Pearson, Hesketh - perhaps Harmondsworth, UK, as I don't think it's a commonly known place? Also, I wonder if it's worth noting it's a 1954 reprint of a 1935 original. In other instances, you list the edition.
    • I think this is indeed a straight reprint rather than a new edition, so I wouldn't mention that. Good idea about the location. Tim riley talk 15:45, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
And understood again. KJP1 (talk) 16:37, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Book 28: Rosenthal, Harold - You'll know better than I but Worldcat is giving the Earl of Harewood as co-author, although Googlebooks doesn't. Did Lascelles write a foreword?

End of Batch 1. KJP1 (talk) 14:41, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

You're clearly cut out for this. Taking to it like a duck to orange. Tim riley talk 15:45, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Source review - batch 2

Batch 2 - inline sources not to the main published books. I'll list them all to check they're working but will embolden any comments, queries.

  • Sources 3/5/19/71 - can't access them as I don't have Grove Online but they work;
  • Sources 6/27 - work fine. Support the contents, as far as my French allows me to check;
  • Source 8 - can't access as subscription site;
  • Source 23 - works fine but does it need an "=" in the title?
  • No. My clumsy typing. Now blitzed. Tim riley talk 15:55, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Many thanks. KJP1 (talk) 16:37, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Source 30 - fine and supports the content;
  • Source 41 - supports the content. I do like "Messager's music has not pleased the public";
  • Source 46 - supports the content;
  • Source 53 - supports the content;
  • Source 55 - can't access this subscription site but it works;
  • Source 57 - another subscription site and in French. But it works;
  • Source 70 - due no doubt to my very poor French, I am not seeing the quote on the linked page. Are we linked to the right page?
  • This is a bit of a pain. Owing to the construction of the site the page you have reached is the nearest you can get by url link to the actual page, which doesn't have its own url and is linked to from this one. I thought of explaining this in the citation, but a concise way of explaining it eluded me and still does. If you go back to the page you will see on the left a little below the middle "Articles de presse" and the first of those links is the one in question. There's another such one to a different page of the same site later with the same problem. Tim riley talk 15:55, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Yes, see the problem and can't see a solution either. Lets leave it. KJP1 (talk) 16:37, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Ooh... Since there are two links with the same date, I think we should say that the quote is contained in the first one listed below "Articles de presse". -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:38, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
I'm getting a slight throbbing about the temples as my brain overheats. Ss, I have every confidence, without fully understanding it, that what you suggest is a good idea, and I suggest you implement it. Tim riley talk 17:56, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Done. See if you like it. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:16, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
That will do nicely. Much more concise than I had managed to conceive. Tim riley talk 19:42, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Sources 83/88 - can't access this subscription site but it works;
  • Source 91 - Is the wrong program listed here? Programs: 90e année: 1916–17 shows me a Swiss tour and a, cancelled, Spanish tour. I think the French provincial tours are earlier?
    • Changed ref to Holoman's book. Tim riley talk 19:35, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Source 95 - can't access the relevant page but the link works;
  • Source 96 - can't access this subscription site, at least not without parting with $22, but it works;
  • Source 101 - supports the content;
  • Source 111 - supports the content;
  • Source 113 - supports the content;
  • Source 121 - can't access either but they both work;
  • Source 129 - can't access it but it works;
  • Source 130 - can't access it but it works and it's certainly about two pigeons;
  • Source 153 - supports the content;
  • Source 159 - can't access but it works;
  • Source 166 - Isn't the Discography Appendix 5 rather than Appendix 4?
  • Fixed. I genuinely wonder if the linked site has been rejigged since we linked to it. Two egregious errors in relation to it would seem strange. Tim riley talk 19:23, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Sources 168-193 inclusive - all present and correct;
  • Source 205 - well, I didn't see 'em in the intro, but I did skip the 175 pages of reproduced score!
  • Source 207 - supports the content;
  • Source 208 - I think you've an unnecessary closing bracket ] at the end of The Little Michus instead of a ";
  • Tim fixed this. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:31, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Source 209 - supports the content.

Source review - batch 3

Batch 3 - FAC source criteria

1c - well-researched
  • The sources are all of high quality, the article is thoroughly researched and, as far as my meagre knowledge of Mr. Messager goes, appears to cover the relevant literature. The article is very well supported by a depth of inline citations. KJP1 (talk) 17:19, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
2c - Consistent citations
  • The citing is consistent throughout. One quick query - Source 151, The Guardian, 2001, has "p. H17". Is the H a section of the paper? KJP1 (talk) 17:19, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
  • That's quickly answered: yes. Tim riley talk 19:18, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Source review - batch 4, and final

Batch 4 - spot-checks against non-online sources

Looking at some other source reviews from the Riley FA stable, and at Brian's very helpful essay, I'm not at all sure spot-checks of content against sources are really necessary. You're both hardly first-time nominees! And I have done a fair few with the online sources. That said, I'm very happy to stroll over to the University of Manchester Library where I'm certain they'll have some of the offline sources. But it'll be the early part of next week before I can get there. KJP1 (talk) 17:48, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
T. Riley of Liverpool comments: Good Lord! They have libraries in Manchester? Your call, of course, but I doubt if the coordinators will wish you to go to that trouble for two serial offenders such as Ssilvers and Tim riley. I shall now get back to following up the outstanding points in your review. If I may say so, the review is a splendid job for a first attempt, and has properly put the nominators on their mettle. Tim riley talk 18:10, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Your checks above are superb, and your sharp eye has helped us to improve the article. It is up to you as to whether you wish to be so generous as to check the offline sources, but everything you have done already has been exceedingly helpful! -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:28, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

I think – mind I say I think – we have dealt with all your points, KJP. Over to you. Tim riley talk 19:38, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

You have indeed. And from my perspective you are fine on the sources. I'm very confident that a spot-check of those offline isn't necessary. It's been a pleasure. As Tim knows, I'm a musical illiterate, but I now feel I know Messager like a brother. It's a superb article and I'd happily Support, except I don't think one does after a source review. But you're there without, for which many congratulations. KJP1 (talk) 19:56, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Good. Well, warmest thanks for your scrupulous review. I echo Ssilvers in thanking you for helping us to improve the article. Tim riley talk 20:27, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Image review

  • Suggest scaling up all three posters
    • Done, I think. Glad if you (and any other interested editor) will check they now look OK, and perhaps tweak if not. Tim riley talk 08:32, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
  • File:André-Messager-c1888.jpg: where is that publication date coming from?
    • The publication date given by the Bibliothèque nationale de France is "18..". Our man is still youngish, and hasn't yet lost his hair, but the date is evidently after 1886 as the picture was published with a few bars from Le Deux pigeons (1886) printed below it over the composer's signature. 1888-ish seemed a fair guess, but I now see The Association l'Art Lyrique Français says 1890, and I have amended our date to match. Details on the image page adjusted accordingly. Tim riley talk 08:32, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
  • File:Melisande.jpg: if the author is unknown, how do we know they died over 70 years ago? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:01, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
    • We don't of course. (I sometimes wonder if anyone has ever posted a picture to Commons with reliable information.) Now replaced with a {PD-US-1923-abroad} image. Tim riley talk 08:32, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Nikkimaria, thank you very much for the review. I hope the replies above are satisfactory. Tim riley talk 08:32, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Black Hours, Morgan MS 493

Nominator(s): Ceoil (talk) 13:03, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Short article about an exceptionaly beautiful, uber-goth, 15th c illuminated book. I realise the article is slight, but after a few years of exhaustive searching, am confident it represents the totality of research. The article's further reading sect mentions the Facsimile Ausgabe von Pierpont Morgan Library, New York, M. 493, but this is a facsimile and costs about four grand. MS 493 is of a very rare type, very brittle, and not often on display. Ceoil (talk) 13:03, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:54, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Support Edwininlondon

Thanks for bringing this to my attention, I love old books. With the caveat that I am no expert, some comments:

  • consists of 121 leaves, the majority of which consist --> repetition
    Yes done Ceoil (talk) 20:26, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
  • 14 lines, with fourteen --> inconsistent
    Not sure - the pages of text are arranged in rows of 14 lines, there are also 14 fully illuminated sides. Ceoil (talk) 20:26, 7 April 2018 (UTC) Oh I see what you mean. Ceoil (talk) 20:37, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
  • (folio 121v).[1] --> the lead only needs references for controversial statements, which I doubt is the case here
have reduced the lead refs. Ceoil (talk) 20:02, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "unequaled luxury" --> is this quote necessary? It just makes me wonder who said so. Would it not be better to rephrase?
    Yes wonder too. Its there to emphasise that whoever commissioned these works had deep pockets indeed. Will mull over. Ceoil (talk) 20:26, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Its codex are --> codices is the plural but not sure whether you want plural or singular
Done. Ceoil (talk) 20:02, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • presumably for high-ranking members of society, art historians assumed for the court of Philip the Good and Charles the Bold; --> this doesn't flow very well I think, and ending with a ; doesn't make it easy to improve. How about something like this: presumably for high-ranking members of society, most likely for the court of Philip the Good and Charles the Bold. Given their ..
    reprhased as "They were more highly regarded than more conventional illuminated books of hours, and today art historians assume commission from the courts of Philip the Good and Charles the Bold Ceoil (talk)
  • if we have colour and colourisation, should we not also have favour
    Yes done Ceoil (talk) 20:26, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
  • some of the figure's -- which figure are we talking about here? No figure has been introduced
    Clarified Ceoil (talk) 20:36, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
  • The manuscript does not contain any family crest to identify the donor, who, given the expense of the book and its dating, art historians assume was a high-ranking member of court;[7] there has been speculation that it was commissioned by or for Charles the Bold.[1] --> this was already described above

More later. Edwininlondon (talk) 19:09, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Edwinin for these, and also for your edits. Ceoil (talk) 20:26, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

A few more:

  • Borders decorations include --> or is it Border decorations?
  • Done Ceoil (talk) 22:41, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
  • with multiple signature - with multiple signatures?
  • Done Ceoil (talk) 22:41, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
  • which are probably modern, and found around the corners of the outer edges of the pages --> that comma doesn't sit well with me
Rephrased. Ceoil (talk) 20:00, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • The lettering throughout is reminiscent of the Gothic style, with initials formed from gold leaf on emerald ground, and which typically extend across lines of text,[2] and are in gothic minuscule with silver ink, with gold leaf added for the rubrics --> needs a bit of tidying up, with all those 'and's
Now broken down. Ceoil (talk) 00:16, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
  • The miniatures are all depict scenes --> is the 'are' here a mistake?
  • The most well known illustration --> I'm not a native speaker but I'd write 'The best-known illustration'
  • Agree Ceoil (talk) 10:54, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • I found the font for the list of miniatures quite small
  • Used the small template as I didn't want them to be obtrusive, but thats fair enough and now changed. Ceoil (talk) 22:41, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
  • It was acquired by Robert Hoe --> is it known when?
  • Clarified Ceoil (talk) 10:54, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • I'm wondering if there should not be a little more about the text. As a reader all I get is a link to Hours of the Virgin. I think a brief description of the content is in order. Perhaps even a bit more about the language, the font even. Edwininlondon (talk) 21:29, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Agree. The font (blackletter) is now mentioned in the lead and body, as is the material used for the lettering. Re the text; I dont have much, its in Latin and includes the mass of the virgin, the hours of the virgin, and the office of the dead, which are noted in the miniatures section as the opposite pages. Thinking this through. Ceoil (talk) 11:55, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
Now expanded. Ceoil (talk) 23:08, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
More very good suggestions, mostly done. Ceoil (talk) 23:49, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
Nice article. I support on prose.Edwininlondon (talk) 18:09, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Many thanks. Ceoil (talk) 19:06, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt

Just a few things:

  • Bruges is linked on second use in the lede.
  • suggest the ownership of privileged and sophisticated members of the Burgundian court." I might consider starting this "suggest its ownership by ..."
  • You mention an iron-copper solution, but this isn't sourced either there or in the body.
  • "they depreciated quickly" I might say "deteriorated" as the verb.
  • "It's codex are largely intact," needless apostrophe
  • "colourisation" I might just say "colours".
  • There is a "T" following the second paragraph of "Commission" without a good reason for being there.
  • "worth more per kg than gold," I might spell out kilogram.
  • "and there are no surviving tile or inventory records before the 19th century." do you mean "title" for "tile"?--Wehwalt (talk) 12:33, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks Wehwalt, got these now. Ceoil (talk) 19:01, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Support from KJP1

A small but perfectly-formed article on a small but perfectly-formed book. A few thoughts below but nothing to stand in the way of Support.

  • "a form of devotional book for lay-people" - link lay-people or will it be commonly understood?
  • "The text is written for use of Rome" - it might be I've not had enough coffee but I'm not getting the meaning here.
Librarian speak for Roman Rite, as opposed to Paris, Sarum rite etc. Johnbod (talk) 15:26, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
Johnbod - Many thanks. It's quite possible I'm the only liturgical idiot over whose head that might go! On the other hand, a link might help. KJP1 (talk) 15:33, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "and uniquely dark tone suggest its ownership ownership" - delete second "ownership".
  • "MS M.493 was likely intended high nobility:" - "MS M.493 was likely intended for high nobility"?
  • "the artwork is of a sophisticated and unusual taste, and the unusual colour of pages" - to avoid repetition, perhaps, "the artwork is of a sophisticated and unusual taste, and the uncommon colour of the pages"?
  • "commissioned by the courts of Philip the Bold and Philip the Good" - plural "courts" assuming they weren't the same?
  • "Kaiser Maximilian I observed of the Burgundian rulers" - your period not mine, but isn't Max more commonly known, at least in the English-speaking world, as the Emperor rather than Kaiser?
  • "while the angular and linear manner of the figure's clothes" - aren't we talking about more than one figure, i.e. "the figures' clothes (or clothing)"?
  • "Most art historians date it as as after 1475 based on stylistically and paleographically similarities" - remove double "as" and, for it to agree, perhaps, "Most art historians date it as after 1475 based on stylistic and paleographic similarities"?
  • "The blues were formed from a number of mixtures of ingredients, each allowing varying depths and varieties of colour" - perhaps, "The blues were formed from different mixtures of ingredients, each allowing varying depths and varieties of colour"?
  • "the latter are similar in style to those found in the Viennese Hours" - do the Viennese hours need an introduction? We haven't heard of them before. There doesn't seem to be a bluelink, unfortunately.
  • "It was rebound in the 19th century for the then owner Nicholas Yemenzi" - insert "the".
  • "The book is stamped with multiple signatures around the corners of the outer edges of the pages, but these are probably modern". - Insert "these are"?
  • "They mostly center around the the Mass of the Virgin" - insert "t".
  • "Mary, wearing a wimpled veil, and St John stand to the left of the foot of the cross." - insert comma , and "to".
  • "To their right are two gesturing mourners whose facial expressions convey a sense of deep sadness and loss" - plural "expressions".
  • "as evidencing the "unusual, exquisite and precious overall effect of that is generated by using the technique of fixing an illumination on a piece of black dyed parchment"" - the quote doesn't read quite right to me. Is the "of that is" redundant?
  • "Folio 50v: Nativity ("Hours of the Virgin: Prime")" - should this read "Folio 50v: Nativity (opposite "Hours of the Virgin: Prime")", as the others do?
  • Note 1 is a footnote, whereas the others are all citations. Should they be split out into two sections, Footnotes and References?
  • Should the book page numbers not read, e.g. 9 Walther, p.363? Just ignore me if I'm wrong. MoS isn't my strongest suit.

A very nice article indeed. KJP1 (talk) 09:47, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen, BWV 56

Nominator(s): Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:03, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

This article is about another cantata by J. S. Bach. In the last years, I tried one that was 300 years old (BWV 165 in 2015, BWV 161 in 2016), but no cantata is certain for 1718. I chose Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen, BWV 56, for personal reasons. It is the first FAC about a solo cantata, and the first for a cantata from Bach's third cantata cycle when he didn't write a cantata or more per week (as in the first and second), but much more selectively. It is a beloved piece, and one of few that Bach called a cantata. - The article was began by Dgies and expanded by Mathsci in 2009. It received a GA review by sadly missed Yash! in 2015. I added a bit about the third cycle, and more references to the recordings table. - Enjoy yearning for death, - Bach did! Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:03, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Comments Edwininlondon

I remember reading the previous cantate FA. I still am neither an expert in Bach nor music. A few comments nevertheless:

  • why is "Komm, o Tod, du Schlafes Bruder" in the lead bold?
Because it's a redirect --GA
  • Thomaskantor in the lead could benefit from a brief explanation, as you have in the body
The idea of the lead is a summary, no? --GA
But also an accessible introduction. MOS:INTRO "Where uncommon terms are essential, they should be placed in context, linked and briefly defined" --EIL
Yes, but there are so many things NOT mentioned, - do we really have to explain what most readers of a Bach cantata article will know? -----GA
  • Who is Albert Schweitzer? Perhaps add something like "music historian" (I made that up)
This is not about him, theologian, organist, writer, humanitarian, philosopher, and physician, - founder of the Hôpital Albert Schweitzer in Lambarene, Nobel peace prize laureate (1952), - people should know him ;) --GA
  • The year after --> is there a reason why this isn't explicitly called 'second cantata cycle'?
Yes, because it could have happened ten years after the first. --GA
Sorry, let me rephrase: Is there a reason why you do not use the phrase 'second cantata cycle'? --EIL
For two reasons: avoid repetition, and get the chorales in, - how would you do that? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:17, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
For me repetition is not an issue here. But I just read that the second cycle is not identical to the chorale cycle, so it's just too complicated. Maybe leave it. --EIL
The second cycle IS somewhat identical, only that Bach wasn't successful making them all chorale cantatas that year, and added later. -----GA
  • Leipzig Cycle III --> this term doesn't get mentioned elsewhere, just the section header and Jones' sentence. Do we need it? Maybe better to put Jones' label in a footnote?
changed the header --GA
  • A third cantata --> how about something like this:
Bach's third cantata cycle, of which fewer works are extant, is different. It spans works from his third and fourth year in Leipzig, including Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen. It also includes more performances of works by other composers....
I tried differently. The cantatas by others are not part of his third cycle, but performed during the time. --GA
I still find this sentence odd: 'A third cantata is of a different quality.' Should that not be: 'The third cantata cycle is of a different quality.' The following sentences talk about the cycle, not cantatas. Edwininlondon (talk) 09:16, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
Thank you, fixed. -----GA
  • performed works by other - I thought the definition of a cycle was composed, not performed?
see above, - and for Bach, composed meant performed, he composed for specific occasions.
  • Bach shows --> showed?
agree, changed --GA
  • What is the BWV of Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen? Looks as if it doesn't have one.
We established it on top, and in this case there's no hymn or other same title which could be meant. - The template lang changed, making every combination hard to code. --GA
  • which has been discovered in 2015 -> just checking the discovery in 2015 was finding out the name of the author? Maybe "The author's identity was long unknown until in 2015 ...
tried something like that --GA
  • A boat on the Sea of Galilee -> a bit more context, why is this relevant?
Sea voyage - do you think we need to explain more? - Several disciples were fishermen on that lake, sea voyage was every day for them. --GA
Hmm. Difficult. Best I could do is: A boat on the Sea of Galilee (mentioned in Matthew 9:1, which the text has several references to). But it gets a bit clumsy. Maybe just leave it. Edwininlondon (talk) 09:16, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • whom he regarded -> who is he referring to?
whom he regarded as a 'profound composer' refers to the one mentioned immediately before. Can't say: "a composer whom he regarded as a 'profound composer'" as repetitive, - what do you suggest? --GA
Just realised there are actually 5 men in this sentence. Is it important that Gardiner is mentioned at all? Is the exact relationship father's cousin important? If not, maybe something like this:
This is Bach's only setting of Crüger's tune, recalling the style of his relative Johann Christoph Bach whom he regarded as a 'profound composer'.
In former reviews, I have been requested to attribute quotations, which means Gardiner should stay. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:17, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
So it is Gardiner who called JCB a profound composer? Now I'm getting confused. I thought it was JSB. Edwininlondon (talk) 09:16, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
What Bach said exactly (if he did, and in German), we don't know. We know that Gardiner summarized: "... J. C. Bach, organist in Eisenach, possibly his first keyboard teacher and mentor - the one he called a "profound composer." -----GA

As always, nice work! Edwininlondon (talk) 12:16, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for helpful questions, - please check the changes. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:59, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
You're welcome. Always a pleasure, Gerda! Edwininlondon (talk) 14:20, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for more, always helpful! -----Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:51, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Image review

  • File:BWV56-autograph-manuscript-first-page-Bach-1726.jpg needs a US PD tag
  • File:Brooklyn_Museum_1997.168.3_Cross_and_Staff_(2).jpg needs a copyright tag for the original work. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:53, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Comments by Usernameunique


  • Footnote [a] is pretty basic, but how about a citation?
It only explains what the 3 letters stand for, - was the solution found for the conflict that we can't link to BWV and have it bold as the redirect. --GA
  • Suggested first sentence : "Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen ("I will the cross-staff gladly carry"[1] or "I will gladly carry the Cross"[2]), BWV 56,[a] is a church cantata composed by Johann Sebastian Bach in Leipzig for the 19th Sunday after Trinity Sunday, and first performed on 27 October 1726."
It was like that formerly, but is a lot of German + translations + catalogue + footnote, before a reader (who doesn't look at the infobox) would know if they are at the right article. --GA
I would use "depicts" when it comes to images, such as tone painting. Give me another ;) --GA
  • "the prescribed gospel reading" — what prescribed gospel reading?
A reader who doesn't know that the Lutheran liturgical year at the time was organized by specific readings for each occasion will know from the link Church cantata, and the others would be bored if we repeat that in every cantata article. --GA
  • What is the significance of the 19th Sunday after Trinity Sunday? I.e., why is it not just another random Sunday? --GA
same answer, - Bach (and his colleagues) wrote his cantatas to go with the specific readings for a specific occasion, Christmas (3 days with different readings) or 19th Sunday after Trinity. --GA
  • "Komm, o Tod, du Schlafes Bruder" — why is this in bold? To be consistent, should it not be in italics, and should the translation not be between quotation marks?
It's a redirect. Readers who type the title should arrive here. Schlafes Bruder is a novel, a film. The quotation marks frame what is quoted, not its translation. --GA
  • "Du, o schönes Weltgebäude" — how about a translation, and a comma at the end.
The title of the hymn has nothing to do with the content of the cantata, I believe it wouldn't add for someone who doesn't already know it. ("You, oh beautiful building of the world", seems a detour.) --GA
  • "(two oboes and taille) ... "(two violins and viola) and continuo" — taille and continuo should be linked (they are below), and suggest "a taille", "a viola", and "a continuo"
Sorry, no. Whoever doesn't know what these are (like you) can look up Baroque instruments, while for the others it's a sea of blue, and why not link violin? They are all linked in the specific section about scoring. - It's never "a continuo" which is a group of instruments. Saying "two violins" is short for "two parts for violins" which may be played by several players each, depending on the size of the orchestra. --GA


  • "Church cantata by J. S. Bach" — any particular reason for the abbreviation here?
Clarity, and brevity. --GA
  • "opening Bass aria" — Why is "Bass" capitalized?
Mathsci wrote that who contributed the image, - it's a bit like a title. --GA
  • Why does "Chorale" have a "by" ("by Johann Franck"), but "Cantata text" doesn't ("Christoph Birkmann")?
Good catch! The reason is that chorale often has the title of a chorale (when it has an article), and "Cantata text author" would seem too clumsy, - has to be differentiated from chorale author. Adding "by". --GA


  • "Thomaskantor (director of church music) ... Thomanerchor" — you describe one, how about describing the other?
I think one explains the other, no? --GA
  • "Cantata music had to be provided for two major churches, ... simpler church music for two others" — it's unclear if all four churches are major, or only the first two. Also, suggest "and simpler..."
"and" added. If it says "two", how would a reader think "four"?
  • "The year after," — can you note somewhere in this sentence that this was his second cycle, to bridge the gap between first (mentioned in the previous sentence) and third (mentioned in the following section)?
seems redundant to me that the cycle after the first is the second ;) --GA

Third Leipzig cantata cycle

  • "Richard D. P. Jones calls this cycle Leipzig Cycle III." — Richard D. P. Jones should be linked. But is there any relevance to this, i.e., is it just another name for "Third Leipzig cantata cycle", or is he the one who coined the concept of the third Leipzig cycle in general?
Linked, thank you! It's only his phrase (here), which was the section title (see above). We might drop the sentence, but it explains the wording in the reference. --GA
  • "third and fourth year in Leipzig" — suggest adding the actual years as well.
Too tricky, because they all begin mid-year, - he took office First Sunday after Trinity, which was in May 1723. --GA
  • "During the third cycle" — I'm a bit confused by this sentence. Are you saying he again performed three things: 1) Lehms, 2) BWV 199, and 3) BWV 54?
Would it be clearer to add to the first sentence in that section? added: "... that Bach performed more works by other composers during this time, in addition to repeating his own earlier works." --GA
  • "he performed again" — suggest "he again performed"
taken --GA
  • "Like the models, even church cantatas" — do you need the "even"?
yes, because he wrote many secular cantatas for which it's no surprise that they don't contain biblical text. --GA
  • "The writing for the solo voice is demanding" — in what way?
It's what the source says. --GA
  • "Jones assumes that they" — who does "they" refer to? Structurally it invokes the "trained singers" of the preceding sentence, but this doesn't seem right.
should have been "it", changed to "Bach" --GA
  • "The only chorale cantata of the third cycle," — bit of a run-on, suggest splitting in two.
How? Seems one thought. --GA

Occasion and words

  • "For the same occasion ... in his first cantata cycle for 3 October 1723" — suggest "For the same occasion in his first cantata cycle for 3 October 1723, Bach had composed ..." Also, suggest splitting this long sentence in two, one sentence dealing with the first cycle, and another with the second.
done --GA

Poet and theme

  • "whose identity was unknown until 2015" — pretty interesting, would it be easy to give a few words about how he was identified?
The source has it, and his article, but seems not the place to repeat in all cantatas he wrote. --GA
  • "University of Leipzig" — is this the University of Leipzig, or Leipzig University? Regardless, it should be linked.
Both names mean the same thing, - linked. --GA
  • "Sabbath's Tithe devoted to God" — for consistency again, should this not be between quotation marks?
It's only a translation, no title itself. --GA
  • "Ich will den Kreuzweg gerne gehen" — shouldn't this be italicized without quotation marks?
Titles of minor works (poems, hymns, songs) are straight and in quotation marks. --GA
  • "Life is likened to both" — suggest "In the cantata life is likened to both,"
We'd need to say "in the cantata text" then, no? --GA
  • "until the end of the work" — meaning the theme ends slightly before the end of the work? If it's instead present in the entire work, suggest "throughout the work."
excellent! --GA
  • "The hymn in eight stanzas was published" — do you need "in eight stanzas", considering that's mentioned in the next sentence?
no ;) --GA
  • "Bach led the first performance of the cantata on 27 October 1726." — where?
Sometimes we know if Thomaskirche or Nikolaikirche, - for this one we don't. --GA
  • "One week before, he had also concluded a solo cantata by a chorale" — same place?
No, certainly the other, but we don't know, see above. They had performances in both churches on one day only for high holidays (one in the morning, the other in the afternoon), otherwise only one, switching churches. It doesn't matter, no? --GA

Structure and scoring

  • "taille (Ot), two violins (Vl), viola (Va), cello (Vc), and basso continuo." — suggest "a taille (Ot), two violins (Vl), a viola (Va), a cello (Vc), and a basso continuo." Also, why does basso continuo have no abbreviation?
for the numbers, see lead. BC is not used in the table, so no abbr needs to be introduced. --GA
  • "J.J.Dominica 19 post trinitatis. Cantata à Voce sola. è stromenti" — how about a translation?
It's explained by what follows, but done. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:31, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "Neue Bach-Ausgabe" — maybe just "New Bach Edition", which via "Edition" indicates that it is a book and is thus a bit more clarifying.
The translation was made only later, not when it was published, seems a bit not historic ;) - There's a link to an article I created as Neue Bach-Ausgabe (NBA). I added the translation, + italics. ---GA

Movements of Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen, BWV 56

  • SATB — clarify what this is above at "four-part choir", by saying "four-part choir (SATB)".
copied abbreviation from infobox ---GA


  • "Wolff notes" — "Wolff" has not yet been introduced, so should be "Christoph Wolff notes".
good catch (he usually gets mentioned further up ... ---GA
  • What does "scoring even" mean?
You didn't ask in the lead ;) - It's the specification in the score which instrument (group) plays what. We can link to score but the question didn't come up in 7 years. ---GA


  • Is there a reason movements 1–5 don't show up in the table on contents?
It's the movement numbers from the table. An Alternative would be the long German lines they begin with (which you'll find in cantata articles not by me). Most articles have it like this, which provides a convenient link to a specific movement without having to know how it begins. ---GA
Misunderstood the question. Reason is that it seems not helpful to have the numbers in the TOC, before explaining what they mean. ----GA
  • "describes the upward part as..." — this sentence has some problems. The most obvious is that there are five quotation marks, leaving two clearly demarcated quotations plus a stray mark (is there a third quotation somewhere?). The other problem (that fixing the first might resolve) is that "as a musical pun on the word Kreuzstab" is dangling a bit; is this another description of Gardiner for the upward part (in which case it should probably be "and as a musical pun...")?
Excellent counting. I had the whole thing as one quotation, and left a mark when breaking it up. All reworded, please check if it makes more sense. ---GA
  • "with its long and expressive melismatic lines" — "its" refers to the soloist.
no, refers to "entry" (after the instrumental opening), would be "his" if soloist ---GA
  • "accompany in counterpoint and echoing responses" — not sure I understand what this sentence is trying to say, but (if I'm reading it correctly), I think it would be better phrased as "accompany in counterpoint, echoing responses"
I added one more "in", to clarify that it's both, counterpoint, and responses. If I remember right that paragraph is by Mathsci, - I didn't write the article from scratch. ---GA


  • Is there a reason that this (not to mention 3), is so much shorter than 1? The final sentences of each (Gardiner's analyses) seem a bit perfunctory, without much analysis of the movements.
yes, giant opening aria, short recitative, which is added now ----GA
adding: Gardiner writes from the point of view of a performer who conducted all Bach's church cantatas, so knows their sounds, not only construction. ----GA
  • "depicted in the" — should probably be "depicted by the".
yes (would be "in" in German, sorry) ---GA


  • "the passage from Isaiah" — what passage from Isaiah?
It was specified and quoted in the "Poet and theme" section. ---GA


  • I don't understand the first sentence. Is the German the title of the movement? Also, grammatically speaking, the periods should be removed.
I added "recitative", - can't help then having it twice then, split the sentence. Better? ---GA
  • "string accompaniment which after" — suggest a comma between "accompaniment" and "which".
I split that sentence also. ---GA
  • "It begins ... in triplets." — bit of a run-on, consider splitting in two.
just did that ;) ---GA
  • "Gardiner describes: ..." — grammatically the sentence is missing a subject, and stylistically, not a big fan of starting off with "Gardner describes:".
added "this change" ---GA


  • "an inspired masterpiece" — whose masterpiece: Bach's, or Franck's? I would assume Bach (the article is about his work, after all), but the following sentence and quotation deal entirely with the Franck's text.
Sure, Bach's, or it would be handled further up. The text could go there, but I think it makes more sense to see it close to where the music is described. What do you think? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:37, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "BWV 301" — does this have a title?
yes and no, it was without words - as so many of the 4-part settings, so we can take the first line (O, du schönes Weltgebäude), as the ref does, or any other first line from that hymn, - it doesn't matter, as he set the tune. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:37, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
  • 'profound composer' — why the single marks (') instead of double (")?
for a quote within a quote ---GA
need to interrupt once more ---Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:36, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Manuscripts and publication

  • "and the part" — what is the part?
part, the bass has his part, the violins have their part, - like score a rather commonly known term. ----GA
  • "Preußischer Kulturbesitz as D-B Bach P 118 and ST 58." — what does this mean? It's really hard to understand.
The museums code numbers, P for Partitur=score, ST for Stimmen=parts. We could drop that. It's not so common that we have score and parts extant. ----GA
I would need to search. ----GA
  • "its complete edition Stuttgarter Bach-Ausgaben" — what year?
took several years, not finished afaik ----GA


  • "marked by green background" — should be "marked with a green background".
you are the first to say so, but why not? ----GA
  • There are 8 recordings in the chart, but apparently these are taken from a list of 81. What's the criteria for inclusion?
The selection was made so long ago that I don't even remember, sorry ;) - I'll probably add at least those within a set of the complete cantatas. ----GA


  • "his 1908 book about Bach that the" — how about "his 1908 book about Bach, name of book, that the"?
name is Bach-Buch - I thought that's German, and the translation, literally Bach Book, repetitive. Will try to find how it's called in English. ----GA
  • This section feels a bit underdeveloped, and doesn't even have a topic sentence. Can you turn this into a paragraph that explains where the work fits in to Bach's oeuvre, and how it is considered to compare to his others?
Hopefully! Flight is called now. Until later. ----Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:20, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Good work on the article, Gerda Arendt. Full comments/suggestions are above. --Usernameunique (talk) 04:47, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the thorough and helpful review! I replied to the first half, and need to interrupt. Going to travel for a week, responses may come delayed, but as this is planned for the 19th Sunday after Trinity, we still have time ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:31, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

The Thing (1982 film)

Nominator(s): Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 16:09, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

To paraphrase: "I know I'd make this a Featured Article. And if you were all these things, then you'd just not make it a Featured Article, so some of you are still human. This thing doesn't want to promote Featured Articles, it wants to hide inside an imitation. It'll fight if it has to, but it's vulnerable out in the open. If it takes us over, then it has no more enemies, nobody left to prevent this becoming a Featured Article. And then it's won."

The Thing is a 1982 horror film, it bombed at the time but has since become recognised as a milestone in the horror genre. Read, be enlightened, feedback, and hopefully this can become one of our top articles! Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 16:09, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

One of my all time favorite films, of course I'll take a look at it. I was going to comment how there was no analysis section, but then I saw the cinematic analysis section. Here are a few more articles I was able to find on JSTOR about The Thing:

While the cinematic analysis section looks rather in depth as it stands, you might want to at least skim through what these journals have to say about The Thing. I'll have a close look at the article tonight. Famous Hobo (talk) 23:56, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Hobo I will take a look. Sorry I didn't see this update to the talk page. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 19:18, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done, defer to FH on source coverage.

  • How are you ordering Bibliography?
  • Further reading should be a separate section, not a subsection, and should not include Wikipedia articles. Also, formatting should match references, although additional information can be included
  • Why include a location for Los Angeles Times and not New York Times? Should be either neither or both
  • FN6 is incomplete and doesn't match formatting of other books
  • FN7 is malformed, same with 39-41
  • Newspaper refs without URLs should include page numbers
  • GamesRadar should be italicized, as should website names like - check others
  • FN 49-50: why no spaces?
  • Formatting for FN51 doesn't match similar sources, same with 167
  • Magazine titles should be consistently italicized
  • Be consistent in whether books include locations or not
  • Noting a rather heavy use of sources that are either written by or interviews of people directly involved in the production
  • Box Office Mojo should not be italicized, nor should UPI, nor BFI, etc - check others
  • FN74: page?
  • What makes Strange Horizons a high-quality reliable source? Alt Film Guide? Screamscape?
  • Rather than Goodreads, just cite the edition directly
  • FN123 doesn't match formatting of other sources
  • FN127: archive link doesn't appear to work correctly
  • FN131: use |via=
  • Per WP:ROTTEN, RT and Metacritic's reliability is limited for pre-2000s films
  • Review aggregators may be cited if the film in question has been reappraised in modern times. Patience, Slightlymad 05:55, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • But they are being cited here more broadly, not simply in the context of modern reappraisal. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:42, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Comment Have only skim read, and while the prose could do with some tingtening, they are largely fine, and am sure reviewers will work through issues (I have started light copy editing). Its a great film and very please to see the article here. Ceoil (talk) 13:42, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

  • Conditional Support: that was a delightful read. Thank you for that! I think the prose looks fine, to be honest. I will support this article on the condition that something be done about standardizing all of the citations. You seem to mix both the Template:Sfn "shortened footnote" style with the method of providing full reference information for every inline citation. I think you should choose one or the other. For instance, see the Template:Sfnp citation style for my featured article on the Mosaics of Delos, using both print sources and online media. Aside from that issue, congratulations! I have a strong feeling that this nomination will sail through the gate on its way to victory. And Kurt Russell himself will approve it with a thumbs up. Pericles of AthensTalk 14:35, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Comments from FunkMonk

  • I'd maybe have made parallels to WP:sock-puppets for the introduction here (or would that be more fitting for Invasion of the Body Snatchers?), but anyhow, will review soon. FunkMonk (talk) 17:29, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "pursues an Alaskan Malamute" How has the exact breed been identified here? Perhaps better to just say dog (or sled dog), as they do in the film itself... In any case, I don't see why mentioning the exact breed is in any way important to the plot.
  • "The Norwegian shouts at the Americans, but they cannot understand him and he is shot dead by the station Commander." Perhaps important to note here that he actually shoots at them first?
  • "Blair transforms into an enormous creature" Isn't this creature composed of many other individuals, though? There is even a dog poking out of it.
This doesn't seem to have been addressed. FunkMonk (talk) 21:08, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
I don't really understand what you want it to be changed to? Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 17:54, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
It is clear that the creature doesn't just consist of Blair, but if the sources only refer to it as a Blair-Thing, then we should too. FunkMonk (talk) 14:53, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "Cohen suggested that he read the original novella. He found the "creepiness" of" You could name Carpenter instea dof the second "he" for clarity, as it isn't entirely clear it is not Cohen you refer to.
  • "of workers employed under Bottin" Full name and link needed at first mention outside lead.
  • "including Nauls' confrontation of the "box Thing"." Which is what?
  • There is some duplicate linking, try this script to see:[1]
  • "was special make-up effects designer Rob Bottin" Seems he is presented after his first mention, so some of that could be cut.
  • "Masur described his character as not really interested in people, but who loves working with dogs." Something missing here.
  • "He went to a survivalist store and bought a flip knife for his character that he uses in a confrontation with David's character." The change of tense here seems odd.
  • "and the wolfdog Jed appears" Present and link at first mention instead of here.
  • "They would make the 27 miles (43.5 km) hike up a small, winding road" Sure about this measurement? That seems extremely long, and I can't find it mentioned in the two online sources used for it. Did they walk this distance every day?
  • "sometimes because there was too much dialogue slowed the pace and undermined the suspense." something wrong here.
  • "Approximately three minutes of scenes were filmed from Lancaster's script that introduced the characters more directly." I'm not sure what the significance/meaning of this is in context with the preceding paragraph. More directly than what? A former version of the script?
  • "as part of film's soundtrack" The.
  • The section titled "The Thing" Could maybe be titled The "Thing", as you do elsewhere, otherwise it seems to just replicate the filn's title, instead of referring to the creature. I would maybe retitle it "creature effects" or "special effects" instead, for clarity.
  • "At the age of 21, Bottin was hospitalized for exhaustion, double pneumonia and a bleeding ulcer, caused by his extensive workload" During or after working on the film?
  • "A cast was made of Lance Anderson's arm" He could be presented.
  • "The team originally wanted to shoot the film in black and white" Why?
This seems not to have been addressed. FunkMonk (talk) 14:53, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "and commercially successful E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial ($792.9 million)" It seems unfair to list that after only listing what the Thing grossed in 1982... That number includes earnings from the 2002 re-release, according to the film's article.
  • Aww, you can't help but feel bad for Carpenter after that receptions section!
  • It seems the "Cinematic analysis" could need in text attribution for its statements, in the same manner as the review sections. Now these conclusions are just stated as absolute fact, though these are just interpretations by various writers. Especially when it goes into speculation about homosexuality and what not, which seems extremely subjective.
  • "The Thing has been analysed as" Another case in point, you need to say by who, not only that it has been.
  • " Bravo listed a scene from The Thing at" Which scene?
  • It would seem the short story and art book mentioned udner cultural impact may be more fitting udner merchandise?
  • "These were published in an omnibus edition entitled The Thing From Another World Omnibus by Dark Horse Books in 2008" I can't find a good reference to this collection anywhere but that Goodreads link, not even on Dark Horse's website. Was it ever even released?
  • The impact on later film-makers could be mentioned in the intro.

Comment I was surprised not to find a link to body horror, of which this is probably one of the most famous cinematic examples. Might be worth working in somewhere with suitable refs. mgiganteus1 (talk) 18:48, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Done Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 17:54, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Australian Air Corps

Nominator(s): Ian Rose (talk) 23:51, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Presenting a neglected formation of the Australian military (so neglected it didn't even have an article on WP till recently)... The Australian Air Corps has always been the poorer relation of the Australian Flying Corps of World War I and the Royal Australian Air Force formed in 1921, but between the disbandment of the AFC and the establishment of the RAAF, Australia's military air personnel needed a home, and that was provided by the short-lived AAC. Though always a stop-gap, it turned out to be a pretty successful venture -- rather than simply remain in a holding pattern, its personnel undertook some pioneering flights, one of which has been credited as marking the birth of aviation medicine in Australia. Most importantly, the corps laid the foundations for a permanent Australian air force. Not a long article but I think comprehensive given the subject's brief existence -- have at it! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:51, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Source review from Factotem

A few minor observations

  • For Newton's Australian Air Aces", the full title appears to be "Australian Air Aces : Australian Fighter Pilots in Combat".
    • Done.
  • The edition of Stephens's The Royal Australian Air Force: A History appears to have been published by the Melbourne branch of the OUP.
    • Done.
  • There is a mix of ISBN-13 and ISBN-10; I understand that it's preferred at FAC to have all ISBNs consistently formatted.
    • Done.
  • Refs #10, #22 & #33 are sourced to The Oxford Companion to Australian Military History. Although you've used , and this source does not appear in the References section, it appears to be a 634-page book. Is there any reason why it's not formatted as a book ref? More importantly, given the apparent size of the source, do the links you provide in the refs take us to the relevant pages? They're behind a paywall, so can't check myself.
    • It's a slightly anomalous situation: yes it's a book, but the online version is not a straight scan of the print book -- there are individual entries and no page numbers, thus cite web is more appropriate for the version I used (yes, the links take you to the individual entries if you have access).
  • Based on the version of the article at 00:58, 5 April 2018
  • I did a random check of refs #3, #9, #17, #21, #30 & #32, and the statements in the article are supported by the sources (though in the case of #21, you could probably reduce the page range to 69-71; minor niggle).
  • Ref #14 does not appear to support the statements that Cole and Wrigley joined the AAC. Page 36 mentions both, but this is in a section that appears to be discussing recruitment into the RAAF, and p. 191 doesn't really say anything in support of the statement that I can see.
  • Page 20 is the one: Legge did telegram Colonel Watt seeking his views on the officer proposed for appointment as the AAC's first flight commander and the other candidates being considered for subordinate posts as lieutenants. It was seemingly as a result of Watt's response on 9 December that Cole was selected for the senior job ... On 19 February Major Brown relinquished the command at Point Cook to Major Anderson, who now became the corps' senior officer.90 In February, too, Captain Wrigley took over as the adjutant of CFS, vice Kilby who departed to become aide-de-camp to the Governor-General. Further appointments in the AAC appear to have been made purely as the need arose. I think those are fairly clear but page 18 also states explicitly that Cole and Wrigley joined the AAC if we need more.
I missed that. I'm not sure why you need to include pp. 36 and 191 in that ref when p. 20 supports the statement made. But that all seems fine now. Factotem (talk) 14:01, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Googling "Australian Air Corps" did not reveal anything to suggest to me that the article is not comprehensive or a full survey of the available sources.

Factotem (talk) 09:53, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Tks for taking the time to make such a thorough check -- much appreciated. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:35, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
Welcome. Forgot to add, I saw nothing to suggest that the sources are not of sufficient quality and reliability for FAC. Factotem (talk) 14:01, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

And a few minor observations on prose

  • ...because it had not then offered a commission to Frank McNamara, VC. Stumbled a little at this. I read "then" as a consequential statement, when in fact I think you're using it to mean "at that time".
    • Done.
  • ...Australia began receiving 128 aircraft and associated spares and other equipment... Maybe "...Australia began receiving 128 aircraft with associated spares and other equipment..."?
    • Done.
  • ...which operated in the waters off New Guinea and Australia's north,... Feels like the end of this clause is missing the word "coast".
    • Tweaked.
  • The AAC performed several tasks in connection with the Prince of Wales' tour of Australia in 1920. Should be "Prince of Wales's" per MOS:POSS.
    • Hmm, "Wales's" seems to me a bit like the unpleasant-sounding exceptions POSS notes...
Understand what you mean, but I'm not sure that Wales is any different from boss, which explicitly takes the apostrophe s according to MOS:POSS. Also, the exception seems to be based on difficulties in pronunciation caused by the word following the possessive beginning with 's', and anyway the solution given is to reword to avoid, rather than allow as an exception. Factotem (talk) 12:05, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Sorry for belated response... I think "Wales's" is more akin to the "z" sound you get with "Jesus's", which is offered as an exception. Much as I value the MOS, it is a guideline after all and I think occasionally we have to ask ourselves if following it religiously actually produces a better article. I mean for the sake of a quiet life I suppose we could go with "the 1920 tour of Australia by the Prince of Wales", though I still think the way it is now is preferable. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:49, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
You're right, and I missed that bit. Personally I do not have a problem with the way you have written this, but I note that MOS suggests re-writing to avoid it rather than allowing as an exception. Up to you. Factotem (talk) 07:54, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Factotem (talk) 10:44, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Tks for those comments! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:56, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Image licensing counfounds me still, but by all the other FAC criteria I see no reason not to support. Factotem (talk) 07:54, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Support from Tim riley

Just what such an article should be, it seems to me as a layman. Clear, readable, and – I confidently assume – comprehensive. Well and widely sourced and cited and appropriately illustrated. All I can dredge up by way of queries are whether Captain Roy Phillipps had quite that many consonants, and whether "program" is now the accepted Australian spelling of "programme". Very happy to sign up as a supporter. – Tim riley talk 17:40, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Many thanks for the review and kind words, Tim. Yes, according to his personnel file (and other sources) "Phillipps" is correct despite looking somewhat odd. As for "program", that does seem common Australian usage, even though we still follow BritEng norms for the most part. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:14, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Comments from Usernameunique


  • Consider breaking into two paragraphs, the second starting with "The AAC's primary purpose".
    • Not averse to this but let's see how we go with the next few points.
  • "maintain assets ... pioneering flights" — a bit unclear what you mean by these two terms, particularly the second (does the first basically mean keep the planes in good condition?).
    • "Assets" seems a good umbrella term as I understand the AAC was to maintain not only aircraft but other equipment and the Point Cook base. "Pioneering" is deliberate -- flights not made before.
  • Having read the lead (but not yet the body), I don't have a good sense of how the AAC was different from the AFC and the RAAF, and thus what the point of changing from AFC to AAC to RAAF was.
    • Heh, you may be labouring under the misapprehension that things always happen for a reason in the military. Of course they do, but it's often hard to fathom just what the reason is... ;-)
  • In general (final point, after reading the rest of the article), you could also expand the lead a bit: how many members, how many died, how many planes, maybe some details about some notable flights, and perhaps something about the legacy of the AAC (the final sentence in "Disbandment and legacy" does a good job of this).
    • Given the size of the article I think we want to guard against too much detail in the lead but I'll think on these last two points.


  • Anything that would work as a picture? Did they have a symbol/emblem?
    • Doesn't appear to have been a crest or emblem; as a temporary formation it'd be surprising if there were. Even units conceived as more-or-less permanent can wait years for a crest.
      • Maybe the B.E.2 in the Australian War Museum?
        • That's a thought, except that the flight for which it's remembered took place before the AAC was formed. I do normally like to put images in infoboxes but in this case I haven't seen one that's directly related to the AAC, representative of the entity as whole, and in good condition.

Establishment and control

  • "were disbanded, and replaced" — again, why?
    • Sources don't go into special reasons for the disbandment of the AFC, it seems to have happened as part of the general demobilisation of wartime units. The purpose in raising the AAC is mentioned.
  • "sole unit" — is unit a specific military term, and if so, could it be linked?
    • Hmm, I don't think I've ever been asked to link "unit" but there is a redirect so I don't mind using it.
  • "The decision for such a service had been taken" — suggest "The decision to create such a service had been made"
    • Okay.
  • "maintained, but he later" — suggest "maintained; Legge later"
    • Okay.


  • "to Frank McNamara, VC" — how about his rank instead of the post-nominal, and/or turn "VC" into a few words explaining his being awarded the Victoria Cross.
    • I liked the shorthand of "Frank McNamara, VC" but I can spell it out.
      • If you want it that way the VC should separately link to Victoria Cross, but I think your rephrasing is better.
  • "in favor (sic)" — no chance he was just using American English?
    • Well even if he was using AmEng deliberately, it's not AusEng and therefore I expect readers will believe it's wrong and try to correct it if we don't sic it.
  • "McNamara received a commission in the AAC that April" — why the reversal? Did Roy King thereafter join?
    • Sorry, I don't understand the issue. King refused a commission because McNamara had not at that time been offered one; in his January 1920 letter he in effect said "take McNamara instead of me"; the AAC did so that April.
      • Got it. I read it differently the first time (as Roy King saying 'I can't join something for which McNamara was refused'), but see now that King was ceding his spot in favor (or favour) of McNamara.
  • "Hippolyte "Kanga" De La Rue ... was offered a commission" — if he accepted the offer, say "accepted a commission" instead.
    • Okay.
  • "approval was given ..., to cope with ..." — minor suggestion to flip clauses, to "to cope with ..., approval was given..."
    • Okay.
  • "According to The Age" — according to the newspaper (e.g., in an article), or according to an ad in it? I would clarify, and also add that The Age is a newspaper.
    • Although it reads a bit like an ad, it's a brief article, which is why I felt it was fine to express it as I did. I'm not used to having to spell out that newspapers are newspapers but I don't mind adding it.
      • Got it. I would actually prefer According to the newspaper The Age" or ever just your original "According to The Age" over "According to The Age newspaper".
        • I think I'd like to revert to "According to The Age..." then.
  • "returned soldiers" — returned, or returning?
    • Returned is correct.
  • "some compensation" — any word on how much?
    • Yes, can add.
  • "they had been on duty" — technically this says that the families had been on duty.
    • Quite right -- tks for picking that up.
  • "Wreckage that may have belonged" — just a point of curiosity, but what happened to the wreckage? Why couldn't they definitively determine whether it was from the plane in question? Was it just a few washed up pieces?
    • The source offers no further detail.


  • "The AAC's initial complement of aircraft included twenty" — suggest "The AAC's initial complement of aircraft included thirty-give airplanes: twenty ..."
    • The source doesn't explicitly state a grand total so I'd prefer to just mention the numbers of each type that the source does spell out.
  • "their historic flight" — what historic flight?
    • Sorry, that probably was a bit esoteric -- it was the first flight from Melbourne to Darwin, so will clarify.
  • "The aircraft included..." — any word on how many of each, since you gave the itemized count above?
    • The source I've used doesn't break it down; another may do, I'll have a look and itemise if feasible.

Notable flights

  • "Williams and Wackett flew" — perhaps "had flown".
    • Yes, of course.
  • "New Guinea" — suggest linking to New Guinea.
    • Okay.
  • "demonstrated that the Avro was not suited to tropical conditions" — any reason why?
    • Can add some specifics.
  • "Second Peace Loan" — this is a but confusing, what is it exactly?
    • It's in the next few words: "for the sale of government bonds".
      • That says what it's related to, but not necessarily what it is. E.g., it could have been a promotion, that was intended to facilitate the sale of bonds.
        • I think I could safely say "to promote the sale of government bonds" if that works for you.
  • "what may have been Australia's first aerial derby—at Serpentine," — you could probably use a comma instead of an em dash.
    • Could do but I felt we'd have a few too many commas around there.

Disbandment and legacy

  • "achieve high rank" — should "rank" be plural?
    • As a general term I think it's currently expressed correctly.
  • "According the RAAF's" — missing "to".
    • Yes, tks for picking that up!


  • Any chance of sfn footnotes that link to "References"?
    • I do prefer the style I've employed as I believe it provides useful detail and find it more foolproof than the sfn format.
  • Notes 4, 17, 27, 32: I don't think you really need the retrieval dates. The references are to newspapers/bulletins, which will forever remain stable; you don't have the risk of a continually updating source, since even if the links you provide ever go down, whatever was in The Age on 22 March 1920 will always be the same.
    • While I agree that a newspaper always exists, I think it's still common practice to add retrieval dates in such citations.
  • Note 27: "lecture" should be capitalized.
    • I think article titles, whether in newspapers or elsewhere, generally use sentence case -- but you've still pointed out an inconsistency in "Imperial Gift Aircraft", which should use "aircraft".


  • Stephens 2006/2001: Why two years? If you're using a particular edition, which can be labelled (e.g., "2nd ed), you should clarify.
    • It was first published (in hardback) in 2001; the edition I've used (in paperback) was published in 2006.
      • If you like, and if the edition was named in some way, you could do something like with Meadows 2004 in Pioneer Helmet#Bibliography, where it specifies "2010 digital ed."
        • I don't mind saying "2006 paperback ed." if you like, as that seems to be the only distinguishing feature of the one I used vs. the original.
  • Consider adding tags as appropriate.
    • Tks for pointing those out but I'd prefer to just stick to pointing out where access is restricted.

Looks great, Ian Rose. Comments/suggestions are above. Most are quite minor; probably the most important is the suggestion to expand the lead. --Usernameunique (talk) 07:14, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your comments, as I've indicated earlier I'll probably tackle the points re. the main body before looking at the lead. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:31, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
Ian Rose, responded to a few specific comments above. I'll hold off on support until I see what changes (if any) you make to the lead, but looks good. --Usernameunique (talk) 20:51, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Construction of Rockefeller Center

Nominator(s): epicgenius (talk) 14:29, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

This article is about the construction of New York City's Rockefeller Center. It's a very complicated story: the original complex was only constructed because the Metropolitan Opera declined to build a new opera house on a plot in Midtown Manhattan, and the last few buildings were added several decades after the first buildings were completed. This article was created from scratch last November, so I took great pains to make sure the text was as clear as possible when writing it. I took some inspiration from the Construction of the World Trade Center article, which is an FA. The "Construction of Rockefeller Center" page received a GA review from Ed! and a GOCE copy-edit from Dhtwiki. I look forward to everyone's comments. epicgenius (talk) 14:29, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt

An interesting read, but I'm finding a fair number of relatively minor issues:

  • "The project was initially envisioned as a new opera-house complex for the Metropolitan Opera." To avoid the repetition of opera, I might change "opera-house complex" to "home"
  • Done.
  • "Excavation of the site started in April 1931, and construction of the first buildings started in September of the same year." I think one of the "started"'s should be changed to "began". Close repetition of words is something I found a fair number of in this article, suggest reading over with an eye for this in case I don't catch them all.
  • Done.
  • "Building" is the subject for the second, third and fourth sentences in the last paragraph of the lede. I'd try to mix it up a bit with different words.
  • Done.
  • "purchased a patch of land" "Patch" generally connotes a small amount, but this is several city blocks. Suggest "parcel". Also, before the reader wonders too much at how low real estate prices were, it might be worth mentioning that Midtown was mostly woods and farmland then.
  • I changed "patch" to "parcel". I also mentioned that the specific parcel was a woodland. epicgenius (talk) 13:26, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "The gardens would operate" But you use "garden" both in the name and in "botanical garden". I'd change to the singular, there and later, might be in order.
  • Done.
  • Some of the present day equivalent amounts are in 2016 dollars, some in 2017.
  • Fixed, as some of the equivalents used the US microeconomic index rather than the US GDP index. epicgenius (talk) 13:26, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "when the St. Patrick's Cathedral was built nearby," It is usually referred to without the "the". I would also remove the "the" before St. Nicholas Church.
  • Done.
  • "John Tonnele, the university's real estate adviser, was hired to find suitable tenants for the land, since the leases on the Upper Estate rowhouses were being allowed to expire without renewal." I imagine this was in anticipation of some more profitable development than the rowhouses, and should probably be stated.
  • Done.
  • I might at some point round out the search by the Met for new premises by mentioning they moved to Lincoln Center in the 1960s. You do mention Lincoln Center, that might be a convenient point.
  • I included it where the Lincoln Center is mentioned. There may be a better place for it, but I have to consider it more. epicgenius (talk) 13:26, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "as well as another property on Fifth Avenue between 48th and 49th Streets, " This is, I assume, St. Nicholas Church. As you mentioned it, I would simply so state.
  • Done.
  • I don't understand why there was a need to buy expired leases. Did the tenant still hold some rights even after the expiration?
  • I changed to "expiring" since that is what I intended. epicgenius (talk) 13:26, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
  • I just removed "expiring or" from that section, since it now seems redundant to "existing". Dhtwiki (talk) 23:41, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "and tasked the noted Beaux-Arts architects John Russell Pope, Cass Gilbert, and Milton B. Medary to judge the proposals." "tasked ... to" I'm not sure works. I might change "tasked" to "hired" or "engaged". I would consider either a more usual usage than "tasked".
  • I changed to "asked" since that is what I intended. epicgenius (talk) 13:26, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Can anything be said about the eventual renewal of the leases, including the taking up of optional terms?
  • I noted that the lease was renewed in 1953 and 1973, and that the land was sold to Columbia in 1985. epicgenius (talk) 13:26, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "Moreover, Rockefeller could avoid any rent increases for forty-five years, even when adjusted for inflation." I might strike "when adjusted".
  • Does "adjusted for inflation" sound good? epicgenius (talk) 13:26, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "The Metropolitan Opera was dilatory toward the development, and they refused to take up the site's existing leases until they were certain that they had enough money to do so.[45][73]" It's the "dilatory". Odd and a bit POV. They would not take up obligations they might not be able to meet. Considering the Depression that followed, they were sensible. I might change "The Metropolitan Opera was reluctant to commit to the development, refusing to take up the ..." Also, you refer to "the Opera" several times. The shorter way of referring to the Metropolitan Opera is "the Met". Conflict with the term "the Old Met" can be avoided by referring to it as "its old building".
  • Both done.
  • "Since the Opera would not have any funds until after they sold the Old Met by April of that year," I might cut "by April of that year" as unnecessary detail and it makes the sentence read oddly. See also previous note.
  • Done.
  • "Otherwise, the facility could not be mortgaged, and Columbia would retake ownership of the land, which would be a disadvantage for both the Opera and Rockefeller.[75]" I would change "facility" to "new opera house" I think for "ownership" you mean "possession", and I would change "retake" to "regain". The final phrase, seems almost facetious. Of course if the owner of the land retakes possession, it's going to be a problem for the tenants.
All done.
  • "plots" (used many times in article). I would expect "lots" to be much more common. Of course, New York real estate may have its own terminology.
  • Done, though I did replace some with "parcels". epicgenius (talk) 13:26, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "The complex would contain the Metropolitan Opera facility as well as a retail area with two 25-story buildings; department stores; two apartment buildings; and two hotels, with one rising 37 stories and the other being 35 stories.[80][81]" shouldn't the semicolons be commas?
  • No, this is correct usage. The semicolons separate complex list items with commas in them, and they are called serial semicolons. epicgenius (talk) 13:26, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "in a layout similar to that of the English town of Chester.[45]" I imagine the shops there are meant, rather than the town itself. I might insert an image.
  • Yes. Unfortunately, I can't find a good image of Chester's layout up close. And in any case, the comparison to Chester was drawn by the New York Times. epicgenius (talk) 13:26, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
  • " by buying leases" I'm really unclear on what is being said here. Are they intended to buy the unexpired term of existing leases from the existing tenants? Or is what is meant committing to a new lease, either from Rockefeller or Columbia?
  • Clarified (it was from the existing tenants, for Columbia). epicgenius (talk) 13:26, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "invalidated" possibly "mooted"
  • Done.
  • "that Rockefeller pay for half for the old opera house and the land under it, an offer that Rockefeller refused." Maybe, if I understand the reasoning right, "that Rockefeller finance the move by purchasing a half-interest in the old opera house and the land under it, an offer that he refused."
  • Done.
More soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:18, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "With the lease still running," suggest "With the lease term already running,"
  • Changed to "With the lease still in effect," Dhtwiki (talk) 22:34, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
  • When you say "site" in the first paragraph of "New Plans", do you mean the land set aside for the opera house, or the whole of Rockefeller Center?
  • I fixed it to clarify that it was the entirety of Columbia's site (i.e. Rockefeller Center). epicgenius (talk) 01:07, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • You mention, I think twice, that the Sixth Avenue El lowered property values. A brief explanation might be a help.
  • I clarified in the first mention that the elevated caused visual obstructions and noise pollution. epicgenius (talk) 01:07, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "The delivery lane was eliminated in this plan because it was seen as unnecessary, what with the road facing the blank walls of the theaters instead of the windows of department stores.[106]" "what with" doesn't seem to me to be the best prose. And the way it is phrased, I am concerned the reader will miss the point as I understand it: that the delivery road was eliminated because theaters don't have heavy delivery needs, whereas department stores do. Whether or not there were windows is a bit beside the point.
  • "the $200 million cost-projection" I might ditch the hyphen. You do when you use a similar phrase, " $350 million cost estimate" later in the section.
  • Dropped the hyphen, as suggested. Dhtwiki (talk) 22:34, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "would be relocated to underground tunnels" maybe just "would be covered over"
  • "while the streets surrounding the plot" maybe "development" or "complex" for "plot".
  • It reads "while the streets surrounding the land" in my version. Changed "land" to "project", since that word is used earlier in the paragraph. Dhtwiki (talk) 22:34, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "by contemporary standards" to avoid ambiguity, suggest "by the standards of the times"
  • Have so changed. Dhtwiki (talk) 22:34, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "which was the maximum distance that sunlight could permeate the interior of a building" I might say "penetrate" for "permeate". Interesting stat.
  • Have changed "permeate" to "directly penetrate". Dhtwiki (talk) 22:34, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "since the skyscraper's proposed elevators would move faster." I might cut this. The reader understands, I hope, that a faster elevator will be more effective in moving people efficiently.
  • "in response to Chase National bank's request for a single building." Bank should probably be capped.
  • Have capitalized "bank". Dhtwiki (talk) 22:34, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "The sculptor Paul Manship was then hired to create a sculpture on top of the fountain; his bronze Prometheus statue was installed on the site in 1934.[150][152]" I would insert "to place" prior to "on top of the fountain".
  • Have inserted those words. Dhtwiki (talk) 22:34, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "with the projected $250 million, 4,042-seat facility" that seems a very high cost for the times, almost as much as the cost estimates for Rockefeller Center as a whole.
  • I found the mistake. The $250 million was for the entire complex, not for the opera itself. Thanks for the catch. epicgenius (talk) 01:07, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "but Junior wanted artworks that had meaningful purposes rather than purely aesthetic ones." Who is Junior?
  • Have substituted "Rockefeller" for "Junior", meaning John D. Rockefeller Jr. Dhtwiki (talk) 22:34, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "his father began scrutinizing all of the following artworks commissioned for the center." I might sub "artworks thereafter" for "following artworks".
  • Now reads "scrutinizing all of the artworks thereafter commissioned". Dhtwiki (talk) 22:34, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "it has been a tradition to display a large Christmas tree at the plaza between November and January of each year.[311]" As November and January are in different years, I might cut "of each year" or cut "of".
  • I put "yearly tradition" and removed wording after "January". Dhtwiki (talk) 22:34, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "and the occasional hyperbole" Isn't it more usually "piece of hyperbole" or "bit of hyperbole"?
  • Inserted "bit of", as well as inserted "amounts" after "massive" in previous phrase. Dhtwiki (talk) 22:34, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "the United States Postal Service" until 1971, the United States Post Office Department. So you might want to change that "post office" later in the sentence to "facility", if you change the name.
  • There's something of a gap in explanation between the managers wanting there to be subway service and the building of the 47th-50th Streets Station.
  • I added a short "bridge" of sorts, explaining how the Independent Subway System was planning for a Sixth Avenue line in the long term. epicgenius (talk) 01:07, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "Raymond Hood had died, Harvey Corbett had moved on to other projects, and the other three architects had little to do with Rockefeller Center's development in the first place." I might add "in their firm" after "other three architects". You could remove "in the first place" if you make "had little" into "had had little".--Wehwalt (talk) 16:10, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Well, this is pretty awkward. I was trying to avoid repeating words, but "they ... had had little" is concise. I reworded it differently. epicgenius (talk) 01:07, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "An updated plan, F-19, restored two smaller 6-story retail buildings to the site of the oval building, as well as proposed a new 40-story tower for a nearby site." I might change "as well as proposed" (a bit awkward) for "and also proposed"
  • Done.
  • "Hood thought this was the cheapest way to make the buildings look attractive, with a cost estimate of $250,000 to $500,000 (about 2.9 to 5.8 million in 2017[3]) that could pay for itself if the gardens were made into botanical gardens.[156][152] " You probably need a dollar sign or the word dollars in the parentheses. Also, refs are out of order, if that is how you are doing things.
  • Fixed.
  • " Hartley Burr Alexander, a noted mythology and symbology professor, was tasked with planning the complex's arts installations.[203][201][204][205]" again, refs out of order.
    • Fixed.
  • Was anything of significance done with the schist removed from the building site?
    • Not really. This was basically the Manhattan schist that was underneath the ground. It's not technically accurate to say that dirt was excavated. epicgenius (talk) 19:26, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "Designs for the RCA Building and International Music Hall, to the north, were submitted to the New York City Department of Buildings in August 1931, with both buildings scheduled to open in 1932.[274] The contracts for the music hall and 66-story skyscraper were awarded two months later.[135][113] Ultimately, the project's managers would submit 1,860 contracts to the Department of Buildings.[275] Rockefeller Center's construction progressed quickly; and in September 1931, construction began on the International Music Hall.[276] By October 1931, sixty percent of the digging was complete and the first contracts for the buildings had been let.[135] " It seems to me there is duplicate information, about the contracts for the music hall being awarded in October 1931, you basically say it twice if I'm understanding correctly.
    • Thanks for that catch, I fixed it. epicgenius (talk) 19:26, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "The foundations had been dug up to 50 feet (15 m) below ground, with each of the area's eighty-six piers descending up to 86 feet (26 m). " maybe "structure" for "area". It might be useful to say how far the bedrock (which allowed the skyscrapers to be constructed in the first place) was beneath the construction.
    • Only the 30 Rockefeller Plaza site was underpinned by the piers, so I said that. Regarding the bedrock, there are studies, like this one that show that the depth of the bedrock is only a few meters below the surface in Midtown. However, the lack of skyscrapers from 23rd to around Chambers Streets is not due to the 50-meter depth of the bedrock there, but rather the lack of nearby development in the 19th century (source). In any case, I can't find a reliable source that directly mentions the bedrock depth under Rockefeller Center. epicgenius (talk) 19:26, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
  • " The failure of the vaudeville theater ended up ruining Roxy's enterprise, and he was forced to resign from the center's management in January 1934.[301][299][302]" Refs not in order, if that's how you are doing it. Also, "opened on April 1, 1937,[388][377]", " the opera plans were formally scrapped.[390][174] "
  • Out of curiosity, how did they propose to get trains from Bergen County to Rockefeller Center?
    • The source doesn't say, but I think they wanted to build a new tunnel under the Hudson River. After crossing the river to New Jersey, the trains would have probably surfaced around the Weehawken Terminal (approximately across the river from 48th-49th Streets), then turned north to the Bergen Subdivision or Northern Branch. Again, this isn't mentioned in the source, but that's the most likely route since it would have been really expensive to tunnel southward to the North River Tunnels. epicgenius (talk) 19:26, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "The complex's underground delivery ramps, located on 50th Street under the present-day Associated Press Building,[343] were installed in May." I might say "completed" for "installed".
    • Done.
  • "Raymond Hood had died, Harvey Corbett had moved on to other projects, and the other three architects never had much to do with Rockefeller Center's development.[344]" I wonder if there's sufficient definition as to who the other three architects are.
    • Godley, Foulihoux, and MacMurray. epicgenius (talk) 19:26, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "when Italy's entry in the League of Nations was obstructed by American isolationists.[360][361]" Should this be the U.S.'s?
    • Yes. I've fixed it. I guess the League of Nations article knows what it's talking about, seeing as it's already a featured article. epicgenius (talk) 19:26, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "and after 29 working days, it was topped out by June.[393]" Since you give a definite figure for the number of working days, the indefiniteness of "by June" is a bit jarring.
  • "In early 1937, the center's managers approached the Dutch government for a possible 16-story "Holland House" on the eastern part of the plot.[398][399] The Dutch government did not enter into the agreement because of troubles domestically, most notably Hitler's 1940 invasion of the Netherlands.[383][400] " First of all, the invasion is three years later, and the building was constructed in 1938; second it's hardly a domestic trouble. Also, the timeline for this whole paragraph appears a bit confused. Eastern signed in 1940 for a building that was surely finished, at the latest, by early 1939?
    • It was very complicated. The building itself wasn't completed until October 1940. The Dutch government had some social unrest at the time which made it infeasible to enter into a long-term commitment for 10 Rockefeller Plaza. There was a gap of two years between the Dutch government's refusal to take the agreement and the Eastern Air Lines' signature of the deal. During that time, 10 Rock was built anyway. epicgenius (talk) 19:26, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "until 1958, when he became the Governor of New York.[411]" elected or became?
    • Done.
  • "1790 Broadway, in Columbus Circle, " wouldn't this be, more usually, "at Columbus Circle"?
    • Done.
  • What is the timeframe you are using in calling things "Avenue of the Americas" vs. "Sixth Avenue"?
    • It's not a time frame. "Avenue of the Americas" is the name used on addresses. "Sixth Avenue" is the common name of the street. It would be wrong to say "1211 Sixth Avenue" since that's the title, but also confusing to use "Avenue of the Americas" throughout rather than "Sixth Avenue". epicgenius (talk) 19:26, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "The complex was deemed complete by the end of October 1939.[417] John Rockefeller Jr. installed the building's ceremonial final rivet on November 1, 1939, marking the completion of the original complex.[64][418][419]" I might throw a "Rockefeller Center" before "complex".
    • Done.
  • "The installation of the last rivet was accompanied by a celebratory speech by Rockefeller and many news accounts about the event.[420] The Eastern Air Lines Building, meanwhile, was not officially complete until its dedication in October 1940.[421][401]" I might change "meanwhile" to "though". Also note refs out of order.
    • Done.
  • " The managers of the property originally wanted to built a 16-story, $2 million structure on that property, but Hugh Robertson, the original complex's sole remaining architect, said that the tower needed to be 36 floors high in order to be profitable.[426] " "built" should be "build". I might go with "stated" over "said".
    • Done.
  • "as part of a negotiation" I might make the last two words "an agreement".
    • Done.
  • "so that the new tower could conform with the Zoning Resolution of 1916." should "with" be "to"?
    • Fixed.
  • "Time Inc. and Rockefeller Center formed a joint venture, Rock-Time Inc., which would share the tower's rent income between Time Inc. and Rockefeller Center.[386]" I might cut all after "between" and substitute "them".
    • Done.
  • " (Incidentally, the Metropolitan Opera finally moved to a new opera house at Lincoln Center in 1966 after declining the opportunity to move to Rockefeller Center.[454]) I might shorten to "(by then the home of the Metropolitan Opera, whose need for a new building had helped spark the Rockefeller Center project)" or maybe just put it in a note.
    • It looks better as a note anyway, so I did that. epicgenius (talk) 19:26, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "Lower Plaza" You are inconsistent on whether you capitalize these words. Please look at all uses.
    • They are now all lowercase. epicgenius (talk) 19:26, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "Unlike the old complex, Harrison & Abramovitz's towers did not need to be excessively beautiful: there was no person who cared as much about the new towers' designs as John Rockefeller Jr. had about the original complex's.[457]" I might change "person" to "one". This has the feel of opinion. Perhaps" Unlike the old complex, which had to satisfy John D. Rockefeller Jr., these towers did not need to be excessively beautiful: the present executives of Rockefeller Center were more concerned with the buildings' functionality."
    • Done.
  • "Complications arose with William A. Ruben, a resident at 48th Street" Maybe "of" for "at". I assume that he lived on one of the small pieces of property that were not included in Rockefeller Center because owners did not sell. It might be good to say which one, if so.
    • I mentioned the address
  • Maybe change one of the uses of the word "difficult" in footnote b.
    • Done. @Wehwalt: I have responded to all of your comments above. If there are any other problems, I would be happy to resolve them. epicgenius (talk) 19:26, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Support good job.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:23, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Image review

  • File:USA-NYC-Titan_Prometheus4.jpg: what is the copyright status of the artwork? Same with File:NYC-manhattan-rockefeller-eislauf.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:48, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
    @SIRIS record, there is no visible copyright notice on Prometheus (Manship) (created in 1934 and the subject of both photos). The pictures are hosted at Commons, where according to the policy page, Publication requires placing the statue in a public location where people can make copies. A statue published prior to 1978 without a visible copyright registration notice loses its copyright protection and enters the public domain. Additionally, the statue does not physically have a copyright notice on it. epicgenius (talk) 01:07, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
Both description pages should include a tag reflecting this. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:09, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
I put the tag on one of the images. I just replaced the second image with a view that excludes the statue. epicgenius (talk) 01:22, 8 April 2018 (UTC) @Nikkimaria: Pinging in case you did not see this. epicgenius (talk) 13:15, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Ford Piquette Avenue Plant

Nominator(s): 101 talk cont 17:52, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

This article is about the Ford Piquette Avenue Plant, a former car factory owned by the Ford Motor Company in Detroit, Michigan. From 1904 (when it was built) to 1909, the company used the building to produce several car models, including the Ford Model T, which was created and first made there. It was also the first factory where more than 100 cars were built in one day, and is currently the oldest car factory building in the world open to the public. The factory survives today as a museum and is well-preserved, with almost all of its original structure intact. Pending its promotion, this will be the second FA connected to Detroit (the first was The Supremes), the second FA about a manufacturing facility (the first was New Orleans Mint), and the second FA related to Ford cars (the first was Ramblin' Wreck). Suffice it to say, the subject of car factories is mostly uncharted territory in terms of receiving featured-quality treatment on Wikipedia. I look forward to reading all of your comments, addressing all of your concerns, and successfully completing this review. 101 talk cont 17:52, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:40, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Support Edwininlondon

The only thing I can bring to the table is that I once went to Detroit. Nevertheless a few comments on what appears to be a well-researched and fine article:

  • a museum and former factory --> do you see it as a museum first? or 'a former factory and museum'?
  •  Done I now have it simply stating "former factory", as the fact that it's now a museum is already mentioned elsewhere in the lead.
  • this factory, including the Ford Model T, which was created and first produced there --> To me, most notable is first Model T creation and production, so I would lead with that, and then add that other models were assembled here too. In addition, I think Model T needs a little explanation of significance. I like what you have in the main body: the car credited with starting the mass use of cars in the United States.
  •  Done
  • spur line connected to a Michigan Central Railroad main line behind the building. --> to avoid ambiguity, perhaps this: spur line behind the building, which connected to a Michigan Central Railroad main line.
  •  Done
  • table of cars: it's quite hard to read the notes in such a narrow column. Can we combine a few columns? Eg., make one for Engine and one for Production dates?
  •  Done The note column in the table was already fixed at 25% of the table width, but I increased it to 33%.
  • The Ford Model AC, produced at the Mack Avenue Plant in 1904, was a Model A that used the engine of a Model C --> do we need this? Were model C engines made at Piquette?
  •  Done We don't need that bit. Per my research, Ford did not start making its own engines until the Model N.

Edwininlondon (talk) 18:12, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Nice work. I support on prose. Edwininlondon (talk) 22:12, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Comments by Nick-D

I know next to nothing about automotive history, but found this to be an interesting read. I'm pleased to see FACs on industrial heritage, though the human dimension could be expanded on here. I have the following comments and suggestions:

  • The article is a bit wordy. I've made some example edits to streamline things a bit.
  • I'm fine with these.
  • Given that this was such an early car factory, how did the architects know how to design it? Was its layout based on earlier factories and the lessons learned from them?
  • In the second paragraph of the History section, I noted that the factory was modeled after New England textile mills.
  • "The vast majority of factory tasks were done by men, except for magneto assembly, which was done by women." - how many people worked at the factory?
  • To address that, I added the following sentence to the article: "Due to changes in demand and car model changeover, the number of employees varied constantly, ranging from as low as 300 to as high as 700".
  • Do we also have any figures for the size of the workforce after other companies used the plant? Nick-D (talk) 09:42, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Only figures for Ford are available. A consistent theme in every piece of source material that I found on this topic is that very heavy emphasis is given to Ford and the current owners, but minor emphasis to the owners in between.
  • What were working conditions like for the automotive workers? (eg, was it cramped, noisy, hot, cold, good for the time, etc). What were safety standards like? Did these change over time as the plant's layout and role evolved and the building aged?
  • In the second paragraph of the History section, note the information about fire safety, especially the fire sprinkler system. This was an unusual thing to add to factories at the time (that is also noted). The factory did have a heating system, but that is characteristic of most buildings of the time, especially in places like Michigan where Winters are long and cold.
  • Given that Ford had a complex relationship with his workers, can anything be said about this? (or relationships at other companies who used the site?)
  • I added the following to the article: "The company did not recognize labor unions at the factory, and each worker was paid a daily rate".
  • Did the workers attempt to unionise? Nick-D (talk) 09:42, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
  • I added the following: "Ford Motor Company was a member of the Employers’ Association of Detroit, an organization that prevented most of the city's factories from unionizing until the 1930s".
  • "completed components would be brought by hand to the chassis for final assembly.[1]:17–18, 20 Completed cars would be shipped to the company's distributors" - repetition of 'would be'
  • Fixed.
  • The para which begins with "In 1905, Ford Motor Company was the fourth-largest car producer in the United States," seems to break the article's chronology, and lacks a clear purpose. Starting it with a more descriptive sentence would help, but I suspect that things need to be moved around as well.
  • The last date mentioned in the previous paragraph was 1905, so there's no chronology break. The purpose of beginning the paragraph this way is to give context to its final sentence, where it states that Ford was the largest US car producer by 1906.
  • "Plans for the Model T were announced" - to whom? (and was this the blueprints for the car, or the fact that they would be produced?)
  • The source material mentions Ford's dealers, specifically, so that has been added.
  • "a group of factory employees" - which factory?
  • I noted that it was Piquette Avenue Plant employees.
  • "Despite no moving assembly line" - not great grammar
  • This has been changed to "Despite not having a moving assembly line".
  • What was the building used for between 1936 and 2000? The article hints at this, but it's not fully stated.
  • I added more info about 3M from the source material, where it specifically states that it made rubber auto parts and non-adhesive paper tape. What the Cadillac Overall Company made is indicated by the name.
  • Not sure that it is - was it involved in Cadillac cars (if so, do we know what part?) or overalls? - serious question for those of us with little knowledge of this field! Nick-D (talk) 09:42, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
  • I noted that it made work clothes, which is mentioned in the source material.
  • Presumably the building's layout and equipment became obsolete at some point?
  • The building itself became obsolete by 1909, when it became clear that it was no longer big enough for Ford's needs, hence their move to the larger factory in Highland Park (this is mentioned in the article already).
  • Yes, but the article then notes it remained in use until around 2000, with the uses of the building becoming seemingly less important over time. Can this be fleshed out? Nick-D (talk) 09:42, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Its importance decreased mainly because Ford left (all of the significant historical milestones that happened at the building occurred during the Ford period), and partly because of its location in an industrial area that became mostly abandoned and blighted over time, which coincided with the overall decline of Detroit. On that note, I added this statement: "The Piquette Avenue Plant still stands in spite of the decline of Detroit, which began in the mid-20th century". In terms of factory equipment, there is no mention in the source material about it becoming obsolete during Ford's occupancy (they were only there for a few years), and the type used by subsequent tenants is not mentioned at all. However, I have already mentioned near the end of the article body that the factory currently contains almost none of its original equipment. This suggests that Ford either brought all of their equipment with them when they moved out (the most likely scenario, in my opinion), or it was replaced later by one of the building's subsequent owners. Also, the fact that the factory's power plant was demolished shortly after 3M took over suggests that the power plant became obsolete at some point.
  • Who runs the Model T Automotive Heritage Complex? Is it funded by Ford, a volunteer group, etc? Nick-D (talk) 05:39, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Model T Automotive Heritage Complex is the name of the organization that runs the Piquette Avenue Plant. I split the first sentence of the Model T Automotive Heritage Complex section and noted that it's a nonprofit organization.

@Nick-D: I addressed all of your points. Let me know if this is satisfactory. 101 talk cont 13:47, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

@Nick-D: I addressed your additional comments. 101 talk cont 00:39, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
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